I agree. In the OP A1 is dribbling down court in a 1 and 1 situation. Bat, toss, throw the ball over B1's head, then catch it constitutes an illegal dribble. Again, the ruling in 4.15.4(rule "when the dribble ends") Sit.E(b) specifically states "since the ball did not touch the floor, the toss and the subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?

How can a player bat the ball, take a few steps, jump in the air & catch it without ending his dribble?

IOW to do this he needs to bat the ball up, not down. Ending his dribble.

If this is not the case then I agree, he's in the middle of a dribble. But I can't see it happening that way.

edit
oops, just saw that Scrappy said the same thing.

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?[/QUOTE]

Since you clarified on the level or type of game... IT WAS A FRICKIN NO CALL!!!!!!:mad:

Scrappy, if the player <b>fumbled</b> the ball, took several steps and then caught the ball, would that be illegal also? Can you cite a rule that says it <b>is</b> illegal?

Casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a) says that you can't continue to <b>dribble</b> after you make a second touch during a single dribble. It doesn't say that its illegal to end a dribble that way though. The player simply ended a legal dribble. What he subsequently does will determine the further legality of the play.

Casebook play 4.15.4SitE(b) is about starting a dribble. There never was a legal dribble because the ball never touched the floor before the illegal second touching. Rule 4-15-1.

What about 4-15-2? "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." Isn't what happened in the OP where the ball was caught before it hit the ground again? So, it is a violation, only because the ball didn't hit the ground before the catch-and-shoot. It cannot be traveling, because until the ball is touched by the hand(s) before it hits the ground, it is still part of a legal dribble, so it wouldn't matter how many steps are taken before the next legal bat.

Yes, it was a no call, nor was it a problem. Just thought it was an interesting case play that I would like to get right in a game I am officiating if it were to happen.

Um, no you're not, just lucky in this case.

Yep, I believe the OP was a violation, but not for the reason you state. In fact, if the ball had hit the ground before he picked it up and shot, you would be wrong, because, by rule, it <B>would</B> be a legal dribble. So, since it's a dribble, a basketball rule fundamental (not one of them pesky little technical thingies, but an actual fundamental) states you cannot travel during a dribble.

Bingo. Thanks. I had the case play in my head. Should've just gone to the rule.

What about 4-15-4(a)-"The dribble ends when the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in both hands".? Isn't <b>that</b> what actually happened in this play? You just apply R4-44-2 to the subsequent action.

You're overthinking the hell outa this one imo.

What about it? It tells us when the dribble ended. Great. But M&M Guy's cite tells us that play is a violation. He ended the dribble by violating.

It has been a real long time since anyone has accused me of <B>overthinking</B> something. ;)

Go back and look at the original post - he says the player was dribbling up the court in a one-on-one situation, batted the ball over the head of the defender, caught it before it hit the ground and shot all in one motion. The violation occured because he caught it before it hit the ground, per 4-15-2. If, for example, the ball hit the ground behind the defender after the bat, then he catches it and shoots in one motion, it would be a legal play.

Actually the OP says he JUMPED and caught the ball while in the air and then shot it before landing...exactly what violation will you call?

Illegal dribble, per 4-15-2. Remember, his jump, catch and shot was after the bat over the defender's head. It would've been legal if the ball hit the ground first.

The violation for "batting the ball in the air and touching it again before it hit the ground." Illegal dribble.