Self bat
 

Had a player last night dribbling up the court for a 1 on 1 break. Right before he got to the defender, he lobbed (batted) the ball up to himself around the defender (not a shot), took a few steps then jumped and caught the ball in the air, and shot it before returning to the ground. The ball did not hit the floor before he caught his own pass either. Is this legal? What if it had bounced before he got to it? He thought that since he caught and released the ball in midair, there would be no violation. I disagreed.

Legal play.The player ended his dribble. The call now depends on what the player does with his pivot foot <b>after</b> he ended the dribble. There was nothing violated under NFHS rule 4-42-2(a) because the player never landed.

You can't pass the ball to yourself . If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball.

Was was your call OP?

Maybe nothing violated under 4-42-2(a), but what about 4.15.4 Situation E?

Legal. Just another dribble.

As long as it's off his own backboard, legal as well.

1) Where do you get a "pass" from? The bat was part of the dribble. See casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a).

2) Casebook play 4-15.4SitD(b) answers that one. It's a "interrupted dribble". It's legal to either continue dribbling or end the dribble. If you end the dribble, rule 4-44 will determine whether the player subsequently travels or not.

3) Legal play. Judgment call as to whether the ball thrown against the backboard was a shot or a pass. Unless you're a mindreader (and I'm certainly not), the common practice is to judge it as a "try".

That's the one I was thinking of, some others might have thought of it too.

Where is your rules reference? (Or is this too hard to reference?)

Peace

Dude, don't take the bait. You're smarter than he is, so show it. I'm sure you've been called a lot worse and ignored it and no one on here would so anything but laugh at the reference.

Not relevant. The ball was batted over the defender's head. That's part of the dribble. Grabbing the ball in mid-air after going around the defender legally ended the dribble. If he had batted the ball to the floor again instead--a la 4.15.4SitD(a), it would have been a violation for touching the ball twice during a single dribble. If he catches the ball, it is ruled as a traveling violation because it never met the requirements of being a dribble as outlined in 4-15-1.


Apples and sushi.

Yeahbut he took a couple of steps in both the case play and the OP's sitch.

I don't think being in the air when he catches the ball makes a difference.

That is correct. You can't pass the ball to yourself because a pass is defined as throwing the ball to a terammate. Therefore, there's no such thing as a self pass, legal or illegal. It doesn't exist.

If he throws it off the backboard, legal, but if it doesn't hit anything or it's not a shot attempt or an interrupted dribble, it is a classic traveling with the ball. [/quote]

You are so damn WRONG. Read the rule book!

With one exception, you must be HOLDING the ball in order to travel!

As long as the player above did not end his dribble, his play is perfectly legal. If he ended the dribble, released the ball and then touched it again, it's an illegal dribble. But under NO circumstances is this ever traveling!!!

JR that same case play 4.15.4SitE(b). The ruling specifically says since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

Joe, that case play is referencing rule 4-15-1. The player is starting a dribble. If he grabs the ball before it hits the floor once, he has never legally dribbled. Iow, there never was a legal dribble involved. In the play being discussed, the player is in the middle of a legal dribble. All he is doing is ending that legal dribble.

Interesting. I hadn't noticed that the case play is about starting the dribble. But I don't see how it can be legal to bat the ball in the air during a dribble, take several steps, and then catch the ball. I think the case play has to cover the play under discussion. The bat and subsequent catch would have to be an illegal dribble, no?

I agree. In the OP A1 is dribbling down court in a 1 and 1 situation. Bat, toss, throw the ball over B1's head, then catch it constitutes an illegal dribble. Again, the ruling in 4.15.4(rule "when the dribble ends") Sit.E(b) specifically states "since the ball did not touch the floor, the toss and the subsequent catch is an illegal dribble.

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?

How can a player bat the ball, take a few steps, jump in the air & catch it without ending his dribble?

IOW to do this he needs to bat the ball up, not down. Ending his dribble.

If this is not the case then I agree, he's in the middle of a dribble. But I can't see it happening that way.

edit
oops, just saw that Scrappy said the same thing.

I don't know why, but I feel embarassed to say this, but this was in a pick-up game in which I was playing. OK, there I said it. I told my team-mate I thought it was a travel, but it was a game-ender at 11:00 at night, and we were all ready to go home anyway, so not too much complaining.

So, BBR, it sounds like it depends on whether or not the dribble ended. If it was just a bat, then the dribble did not end, thus legal. However, if he picked it up with both hands and lobbed it forward to himself and did as described, it would be double dribble as soon as he caught it. Is this correct?[/QUOTE]

Since you clarified on the level or type of game... IT WAS A FRICKIN NO CALL!!!!!!:mad:

Scrappy, if the player <b>fumbled</b> the ball, took several steps and then caught the ball, would that be illegal also? Can you cite a rule that says it <b>is</b> illegal?

Casebook play 4.15.4SitD(a) says that you can't continue to <b>dribble</b> after you make a second touch during a single dribble. It doesn't say that its illegal to end a dribble that way though. The player simply ended a legal dribble. What he subsequently does will determine the further legality of the play.

Casebook play 4.15.4SitE(b) is about starting a dribble. There never was a legal dribble because the ball never touched the floor before the illegal second touching. Rule 4-15-1.

What about 4-15-2? "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." Isn't what happened in the OP where the ball was caught before it hit the ground again? So, it is a violation, only because the ball didn't hit the ground before the catch-and-shoot. It cannot be traveling, because until the ball is touched by the hand(s) before it hits the ground, it is still part of a legal dribble, so it wouldn't matter how many steps are taken before the next legal bat.

Yes, it was a no call, nor was it a problem. Just thought it was an interesting case play that I would like to get right in a game I am officiating if it were to happen.

Um, no you're not, just lucky in this case.

Yep, I believe the OP was a violation, but not for the reason you state. In fact, if the ball had hit the ground before he picked it up and shot, you would be wrong, because, by rule, it <B>would</B> be a legal dribble. So, since it's a dribble, a basketball rule fundamental (not one of them pesky little technical thingies, but an actual fundamental) states you cannot travel during a dribble.

Bingo. Thanks. I had the case play in my head. Should've just gone to the rule.

What about 4-15-4(a)-"The dribble ends when the dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in both hands".? Isn't <b>that</b> what actually happened in this play? You just apply R4-44-2 to the subsequent action.

You're overthinking the hell outa this one imo.

What about it? It tells us when the dribble ended. Great. But M&M Guy's cite tells us that play is a violation. He ended the dribble by violating.

It has been a real long time since anyone has accused me of <B>overthinking</B> something. ;)

Go back and look at the original post - he says the player was dribbling up the court in a one-on-one situation, batted the ball over the head of the defender, caught it before it hit the ground and shot all in one motion. The violation occured because he caught it before it hit the ground, per 4-15-2. If, for example, the ball hit the ground behind the defender after the bat, then he catches it and shoots in one motion, it would be a legal play.

Actually the OP says he JUMPED and caught the ball while in the air and then shot it before landing...exactly what violation will you call?

Illegal dribble, per 4-15-2. Remember, his jump, catch and shot was after the bat over the defender's head. It would've been legal if the ball hit the ground first.

The violation for "batting the ball in the air and touching it again before it hit the ground." Illegal dribble.

Yep, that too. ;) :D

Yeah, but he jumped after taking several steps.

Not sure. I'd blow my whistle, give the stop clock signal and yell "4-15-2!!" Think anybody would argue?

I would.

Just on principle, because you're such a big Sammy Sosa fan.

What violation? Rules citation please?

...sigh...

4-15-2.

Riddle me this, Batman.....

Rule 4-15-4(b) says that "the dribble ends when the player palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands". Is that a violation <i>per se</i>?

Also.....casebook play 4.15.4SitE(b) that you and the Scrappy One are so happy to cite (almost to the point of orgasm) uses rule 9-5 as the relevant rules reference. And what does rule 9-5 say, you ask? That one says that it's illegal to <b>DRIBBLE</b> a <b>SECOND</b> time after the first dribble has <b>ENDED</b>. In the play being discussed, did anybody dribble a second time after ending their dribble? Scrappy? M? Beuller?

This is why I'm Batman, and you're only Robin.

I believe this is from the original post:
Isn't this exactly a violation of 4-15-2?

Is 4-15-2 a violation?

Are you also saying that 4-15-4(b) is a violation also?

Um, no, but the play mentioned is a violation of that particular rule, because the ball was not allowed to hit the ground after the bat in the air.

I'll be a little milder - I don't believe I said anything about a double dribble violation. I have said all along, (and only said) the play is a violation of 4-15-2.

WTF are you talking about?? Where did I say that??!!

Are all of the things listed under 4-15 explicitly violations? Or are they "definitions" that are used to call violations outlined in rule 9?

Are 4-15-1,3,4,5&6 violations?

You, my crusty old friend, are wandering into Nevada territory to defend yourself.

Why not stop talking, stand in line for the buffet lunch, then head home.

It's been fun, time to call it a day.

Maybe you need to get your prescription checked. Here, let me help:

<font size = +3>WTF are you talking about??? I never said 4-15-2 was a violation. I said the play was a violation because it did not meet the criteria of a legal dribble outlined in 4-15-2!!!</font size>

Ahh...I feel better now.

I'm gonna go play some softball. And probably get struck by lightning, from the looks of it.

4-15-2 states what is allowed and says that, if you do that, you can continue to dribble.

Note that the illegal dribble rule (9-5) states that you can't dribble a second time after ending your first dribble. There's no penalty for a "funky" move that ends your dribble.

I have to agree - the violations are in rule 9.

You sure are a lot smarter than some of the softball players I know.(:D)

The play in the OP is an illegal dribble.

This is specifically talked about in the "Handbook".

WAAAAYY back...even before Jurrassic's appearance on the basketball scene, there was something called an air dribble. At the time, the rules only said was that a player couldn't run while holding the ball. So, some intellegent player figured they could repeatedly tap/bat the ball up into the air while running down the floor...never letting it hit the floor and never holding the ball.

The rule that is now 4-15-2 was added to prohibit this practice. While a player may still bat the ball into the air, it much touch the floor before they touch it again. To do otherwise is an illegal dribble.

If he ended the dribble and then batted the ball into the air, it's an illegal dribble.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would never be traveling.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to dribble. RULING: Violation in (a) because the ball was touched twice by A1's hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

Where, in rule 9, is this violation?

Foot movement, during a dribble, is totally irrelevant, is it not? So, if A1 bats the ball up in the air, even while standing still, is he allowed to catch it before it hits the floor? If not, then apparently, (this part would take a guy with really quick hands) during a dribble, A1 pushes the ball toward the floor, then reaches down and grabs it before it touches the floor, this would also be a violation.

One thing I am certain about, this was a really good question.

I was busy doing a State Cup soccer match. You know that game which Rut doesn't care about and has an age limit for referees at the top levels. :D

Since others have nicely posted the revelant rules and case book plays, I have little to add. I agree with the ruling given below.

BTW the proper signal for an illegal dribble is number 19 on the NFHS chart. It is the same one that is used for a double dribble.

If A1, dribbling, stands perfectly still and bats the ball up in the air and then catches it, all without moving the feet, are you going to call that an illegal dribble??? I think not. The double touch rule is for when the dribble is continued and the ball touches the floor. Catching the ball ends the dribble, therefore the double touch rule does not apply. No where in the rules are the movement of feet considered as part of dribbling (except in case 4.15.4 E(b) where a dribble is being started), in fact, Note 1 at the end of 4-15-4 explicitly states that is is not possible to travel during a dribble.

The batting of the ball into the air does not seem to fit any of the definitions ending a dribble as outlined in 4-15-4.

The only way the OP play could be considered a violation is if you consider the dribble ending because of the bat of the ball. Somehow you must judge that the ball came to rest, thus ending the dribble. The movement and subsequent touch (catch and shot) would then be ruled an illegal dribble as in 4.15.4 E(b).

I do not consider the bat as described in the OP as the ball coming to rest, thus ending the dribble. Therefore, I consider the OP a legal play.

9-5, because he's dribbling a second time (batting the ball to the floor) after the dribble ended (touching his hands a second time while in the air).

Even the casebook play says that it is a violation if it occurs "during a dribble." Catching the ball and shooting it is not a dribble.

Where is it written that touching the ball a second time while in the air ends the dribble?

Exactly. That's his point(and mine). There's a difference between <b>ending</b> a dribble and committing an illegal act <b>during</b> a dribble. In the original case being discussed, the player legally <b>ended</b> his dribble when he grabbed the ball with both hands.

Apples and kumquats.

I can't believe that anybody would say that it's ok to throw the ball into the air, run 6 steps (or 3/4 of the court, for all that) and catch the ball. :confused:

Okay, now granted it's the 2004-2005 NFHS Casebook (latest at the house) 4.15.4 Situation E (b) states:
(b) A1 throws (lob in OP) the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps to before catchig it.

RULING: In (b), since the ball did not toucht the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is an ILLEGAL DRIBBLE. (9-5) That's verbatim. How is that case play different from the OP?? And yes, I've argued this same caseplay yesterday almost to orgasm... :D

Forgive the typos... I actually pull the forum up before my first cup of joe.

First off:
<font size =-3>I need to apologize...grumble...for yelling yesterday...mumble, mumble...not professional...impersonating Dan...under pressure to hold up a metal softball bat during a thunderstorm...sorry.</font size>

Ok, let me tell you it really worries me that I am on the same side as OS and Nevada... :D However, I understand JR's and Mark's position, that if there's a legal dribble, and it's ended, and not started again, there is no violation. In fact, all of the "illegal dribble" violations listed in 9-5 have to do with dribbling a second time after ending the first dribble. But there's that pesky 4-15-2, which says, "During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)." This absolutley fits the play in the OP, so, JR and Mark, are you saying the touching again before the ball hits the floor (the catch-and-shoot) is simply "ending the dribble"? Isn't 4-15-2 saying the second touch is not allowed at all, not just the end of a legal dribble? If it was the end of a legal dribble, wouldn't that second touch also be mentioned in 4-15-4?

You had a cup of yourself?? :confused:

Even though I'm arguing the original play was a violation, I'm not sure this case play exactly fits, because the throw indicates control/coming to rest in the hand/ending the dribble, etc., not a bat during a legal dribble. The OP says the player was dribbling, and batted the ball over the defender during the dribble. If the play was the player dribbling, the ball then came to rest in his hand, he then tossed it over the defender and retreived the ball, then this case play would fit.

Correct.

It is not illegal if he is dribbling, bats the ball, goes around the opponent and catches the ball before it hits the floor.

It would only be illegal if it was the first dribble and he never allowed the ball to hit the floor.

Legal play.

What has happen here is a matter of you outsmarting yourself. You are hung up on the words, you have become too technical. There is another aspect of officiating bb you will not find in the rulebook. It's called the intent and purpose of the rule. The referee has the authority to make a ruling on points not specifically covered in the rules. It would be nice to be able to take every given situation that can happen in a game and relate it to wording in the book. However, that is not reality. For those that needs to be able to see this wording, looking for the next closes thing in the book doesn't make your point right, which may not be anywhere close to what actually happened. You then try to use this wording to confuse the issue. I think we all need to take a step back and think a minute about the intent and purpose of the rule. This is where you will find your answer.

And that answer is, you can not past the ball to yourself. I hear someone say a pass must be between teammates. Well this clever player, outsmarted you. He passed the ball to an invisable teammate, then went and recovered it himself, which was his intention all along. Quit saying he batted the ball, because this is not true. He did not bat the ball anywhere. He passed the ball to himself, a pass, he then went over there and caught it and shot. Illegal in all basketball associations, NBA, NCAA, and NFHS. You can not throw an alley-oop to yourself, unless it's at the slam-dunk contest.

Since the player went trick-a-dick, I'm gonna go trick-a-dick and tell the player, next time you make that move, please be sure and bring your suitcase because that was the nicest traveling move I've seen all year. If you want to say it's an illegal dribble, I will not argue that because the rulebook most closely matches that scenario. However, the rulebook also says a pass must be between teammates, so in the absence of another teammate to secure the ball before it hits the floor, we now have a violation of that rule or a turnover. And last, allowing a player to pass the ball to himself is too big of an advantage to the offensive player and not the intent and purpose of the rule.

Case closed.....

Sorry, I didn't see page 2 before posting. I'll catch up.

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

Jurrassic, I see your point. There is no language in the definition of an illegal dribble that illustrates this.

"9-SECTION 5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended,
unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
ART. 1 . . . A try for field goal.
ART. 2 . . . A bat by an opponent.
ART. 3 . . . A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched by,
another player."

However, this may be self-evident to the rulebook writers, but not to all: if it's not a legal dribble, it must be an illegal dribble.

I agree.

What's that got to with what we're discussing?:confused:

The case play refers to the <b>start</b> of a dribble. The player did not start the dribble legally as per rule 4-15-1. Iow, a "dribble" <i>per se</i> never actually happened. You gotta hit the floor to meet the definition of a "dribble". In the OP, the play being discussed happened <b>during</b> a legal dribble.

Apples and poi.

Correct. What occurs in case book play 4.15.4SitE(b) does not meet the definition of the <b>start</b> of a legal dribble, as per rule 4-15-1. The ball never hit the floor, so the dribble never started legally.

Ok!!!!!! Grasshopper finally gets it, JR. And it only took you about 3 times to tell me.. LOL Thanks.

So, I noticed you have studiously avoided answering my questions.

Hmmm...?

You yelled at me and scared me......:(

There...there...it'll be alright...

Geeze, you're more sensitive than Alec Baldwin's kid... :rolleyes:

Mommy, make the mean man leave me alone.

Just throw another big mac in his food bowl and he'll leave you alone

You heard that too, eh?

Fries, too?

If I'm gonna get a boatload of calories, I might as well go all the way. This way, when I'm in my food-induced nap, you can sneak away unscathed.

Saw it on Entertainment Tonight

The point was that in rule 9, the only violation was for starting another dribble after the first had ended. In 4-15-4, touching the ball a second time before it hits the floor is not one of the ways a dribble ends, BUT 4.15.4 tells us that this indeed is a violation.

Yup, and grabbing the ball <b>is</b> one of the ways that a dribble ends(as per 4-15-4), and <b>ending</b> a dribble is <b>not</b> a violation. That's what happened in the original post and that's my point.

Not on Silly Pet Tricks?

And my point is after the ball was batted up in the air, it was touched before it hit the ground. Is that still "ending the dribble", even though it is not listed in 4-15-4? Or, does the wording of 4-15-2 imply a violation? I thought it was a violation.

I'm going back to chew on my big mac now.

Not you silly. I meant the fat child abuser

http://www.curtainup.com/entertainingmrsloanealec.jpg

Geeze, some people are so sensitive...

How is it a violation to end the dribble?

The point is, this IS covered in the rules.

Now I think I get it. Since the player in the OP didn't continue the dribble, this is not "during a dribble" but is the end of the dribble. Since the player shot the ball there is no violation.

Does the fact that the player did not return to the ground have any bearing on this call? Or would it still be a no call? BTW, I'd wager if this situation was on a test, most would get it wrong.

It isn't.

But, is the wording in 4-15-2 saying the touch after the bat and before the ball hits the ground is simply "ending the legal dribble", or is it not permitted, and therefore a violation?

It's true it is not listed as a specific violation in Rule 9, but the second touch after a bat into the air is also not listed as a specific way to end the dribble, in 4-15-4. In just about any real-world play, doesn't the dribble end <B>after</B> the ball has bounced?

Let's say A1 is standing in place, dribbling with their right hand. A1 then starts to push the ball towards the floor towards their left side, as if to start a drive to the left. After the ball leaves their right hand, but before the ball hits the floor, A1 bats the ball with their left hand to push it back towards the right. Is this a legal play? Or, in a Nevada-type play, (:D) how many times can they bat it back and forth between their hands before it hits the ground? The batting doesn't meet meet any of the requirements of ending a dribble in 4-15-4.

That's why I believe they put in the wording of 4-15-2, to say once the ball has been batted/pushed to the floor, (or even up into the air), it must be permitted to hit the floor before the next touch.

The ball can't be batted into the air and then touched by the hand again before hit hits the floor. In this case, the ball never hit the floor again, as the dribble ended.

Ok, now I think we're getting closer.

I agree with your first statement. Now go back and re-read the OP - the player was dribbling up the court, batted it up over the defender, went around the defender, caught it before it hit the ground, and shot it. The catch-and-shoot <B>was</B> the touch after the bat.

And if he had continued to dribble after touching the batted ball again before it hit the floor, then we would have a violation...but he didn't, so we don't...but you're right - I think you are getting closer.:D

Well, to quote an old, esteemed member: "Rules reference, please?"
Iow, where does it say anything about continuing to dribble after the touch for there to be a violation?

<B>Now</B> we're getting closer. ;)

Batting the ball, imo, means tipping it away or swinging at it. It's entirely possible that the code does not describe this particular play, which I find amazing in this day and age of the game.

Somebody needs to define the word bat in the Federation code? To me, BAT does not mean PASS! One poster has already stated the reason why this bat restriction was put in the code in the first place. It was for players like Wilt Chamberlain who would tip the ball all the way down the court from one end to the other and never dribble it, thus dunking the ball in the end to score. Too big of an advantage to the offensive team with a player bigger than everyone else. Balance of fair play has to be realized here.

Yup. Look at 4-15-4(b)--palming. Is palming a violation? No! It's what you do <b>after</b> you palm the ball that determines whether or not the dribbler violates. The "palm" only <b>ends</b> the dribble. If you dribble again after palming the ball, you have an illegal second dribble. If you move your pivot foot illegally <b>while</b> palming the ball, you're traveling. If you "palm" and then immediately pass or shoot, it's a legal play.

The play being discussed is really no different than ending a dribble by <b>palming</b> the ball. What the player does after ending their dribble determines the call or no-call.

1) Why? Because you don't understand what we're talking about? That's never stopped you from posting before.

2) Um, I hate to break this to, but the term "bat" sureashell <b>IS</b> defined in the NFHS rule book. Very explicitly too. Not only that, if you look up the definition of a "pass" in the NFHS rulebook, you will also find that a "bat" sureashell can also be a "pass" too. Why don't you go look up those terms in the FED rule book and get back to us when you understand them?

If you don't have a clue what we're talking about or what actually is contained in the rules, why post?

Yes he did. Re-read the OP.

Actually, 4-15-2 describes the play exactly.

But knowing the semantics helps you understand the game, and how it is to be called. Otherwise, you are just making things up.

So, just so we're clear, are you saying the touch after the bat simply ends the dribble?

"4-15-ART. 2 . . . During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s)."

This rule is definining what a player may and may not do. While it is not explicitly listed in rule 9 under illegal dribble, its mere presence in the definition of dribbling relates it to an illegal dribble.


This rule clearly says that when a ball, during a dribble, is batted into the air, the dribbler can only touch the ball again (with the hands) if it is first allowed to hit the floor. It doesn't distinguish between that subsequent touch being another dribble or a catch to end the dribble. The "during a dribble" part of the rule is only refering to the time the ball is batted, not the subsequent touch.

The OP stated he lobbed (batted) the ball to himself. How can you lob and bat the ball at the same time? Either you batted the ball to yourself or you lobbed the ball to yourself, but you can't do both, and both are illegal by rule. I envision this as a pass (lob) and not a batted ball. Since the OP specifically included batted, I see why that took you down this path. Perhaps the OP intentionally wanted to twist you guys up.

The rules regarding illegal dribble are quite complex and borders on traveling. If we had an interrupted dribble or lost of the dribble, then you can argue that the player is allowed to recover the ball. However, with the absence of this, just a clear bungle of the play, we got a violation. But let's not diminish the judgment of the play by the official. If in the officials judgment the player tried to shoot the ball from the lob attempt, batted it afterwards in an attempt to score, then recovers it and shoots again. I would say legal. If the player got cute and decided to pass to himself (which is what I envision) I would call a violation without hesitation. Don't forget the suitcase the next time.

Good discussion....nicely laced questioned by the OP.

Which rule makes both illegal?

4-15-2, I stand corrected.

Ok, I appriciate that.

Just so you understand, the reason for this long thread is to differentiate the wording in that rule as to whether the touch after the bat over the defender's head is a violation, or simply a way to end the dribble.

Take the OP, but change the ending slightly: A1 dribbles up to B1, bats the ball up over B1, runs around B1, taking 4 or 5 steps to do so, and continues the dribble after the ball bounces once behind B1. I've gathered from your previous posts that you would call this a travel, because there is no such thing as batting the ball to yourself, and taking several steps to do so. However, you would be entirely wrong because of the wording of 4-15-2. You would've screwed A1 out of a possession because you did not fully understand the rules and their intent.

Also, as far as not being able to bat the ball to yourself, think of it this way: isn't a dribble nothing more than batting the ball to yourself off the ground? Knowing specific terms and definitions is important in understanding how the game should be officiated.

Shutup...dexter-head. :p

No, they do not border on traveling.

Traveling occurs while HOLDING the ball.

You cannot travel while dribbling, either legally or illegally.

It's amazing that you can't get that through your head.