game plat situation #2

[eroe39]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Folks,
Eli will prove to be a valuable resource for this board.
He is currently in the NBA development program and is learning daily from the best in the business. (Eli, I hope you don't mind being "outed")
I have worked with Eli at Coast to Coast Referee School and know that he is an excellent official. (Brad, you may know Eli as well)
IMHO, sometimes the High School rules are not written with a whole of common sense. As you progress to higher levels of basketball you will find that common sense in combination with rules knowledge is essential to calling the game.
The philosophies I have learned from the NBA officials
that have taught me, (Ed Rush, Ron Garretson, Bob Delaney, Greg Willard, Steve Javie,Gary Zielinski, and many others)
have NEVER failed me or gotten me in trouble when working a
High School or College game.
Eli, I know that this board primarily deals with High School and College situations, but I for one hope you continue to post. Good luck with your season,and when you see Kurt, Mike H, and Gary Z., say Hi for me.
Drake Marques

Drake, I appreciate the props. It's been awhile. I remember learning from you and Larry when I worked with you all at Coast to Coast when I knew very little about the pro game. I am working with Z this Saturday and will tell him you said Hi.

[crew]

drake m.,
what do you think about this play?

[DrakeM]

I would call a block on A1.
Mainly on the philosophy that A1 did not provide B1 a spot to land.

[DrakeM]

Tony,
I actually had a play similar to yours a couple of weeks ago.
Defender B1 tries to take a charge and flops on the play.
A1 loses the ball, which is then picked up by A2.
All this time B1 is still on the floor. A2 then attempts
a layup, and as he is doing so,jumping over B1 on the ground, B1 rolls over, trying to get up and in the process
trips A2. I call foul on B1.
He says, "How can I foul him when I'm lying on the ground?"
Still a foul, nonetheless.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by DrakeM
I would call a block on A1.
Mainly on the philosophy that A1 did not provide B1 a spot to land.

I do not understand your philosophy. Please detail the play so that I can understand your philosophy. Under NHFS and NCAA (not withstanding the Women's interpretation) rules, a player is entitled to any spot on the floor provided that the player secures that spot legally.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Tony,
I actually had a play similar to yours a couple of weeks ago.
Defender B1 tries to take a charge and flops on the play.
A1 loses the ball, which is then picked up by A2.
All this time B1 is still on the floor. A2 then attempts
a layup, and as he is doing so,jumping over B1 on the ground, B1 rolls over, trying to get up and in the process
trips A2. I call foul on B1.
He says, "How can I foul him when I'm lying on the ground?"
Still a foul, nonetheless.

Would you have called a foul on B1, had he not tried to get up, not moved, and A2 tripped on him?

[DanIvey]

BktBallRef, you had some good points in your reply to RookieDude's Post.

But, I have to disagree with you on the warning to a player dunking in the pregame warmups.

Three years ago my partner and I were doing a H.S. Boys Varsity Game. During the pregame warmups I heard what sounded like a dunk, I didn't see it as I was watching the Home team warm up. As I looked over, I see my partner "quietly" walk over to the player and tell him something.

Well, the Home Team coach saw everything. The dunk, the "warning", and my partner walking back to where I was at midcourt.

The Coach was livid! He said, "where in the rules does it say you warn a player for dunking...if you saw it, CALL IT! If you don't want to call it...then ignore it...don't
warn him!"

We didn't "T" the player for the dunk...but the Coach had a point.

Dan Ivey

[DrakeM]

Mark,
From reading the original post,
the rebounder was in the air when A1 slid under him.
That would be my reasoning for a block call.

[DrakeM]

BktballRef,
If the player was just laying on the floor protecting himself, I would not have called a foul on him.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by DrakeM
Mark,
From reading the original post,
the rebounder was in the air when A1 slid under him.
That would be my reasoning for a block call.

Okay, now I understand. A1 gained his position on the floor after B1 became an airborne player, hence the blocking or tripping foul on A1. That makes sense. Thank you for your clarification.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by DrakeM
BktballRef,
If the player was just laying on the floor protecting himself, I would not have called a foul on him.

Thanks Drake. That's been my point all along. If the rebounder goes up and comes straight, I have a foul. Bit if he jumps forward, as is stated in the origianl post, I have traveling when he falls to the floor.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by DanIvey
BktBallRef, you had some good points in your reply to RookieDude's Post.

But, I have to disagree with you on the warning to a player dunking in the pregame warmups.

I agree with you Dan. If you re-read my post, I said, "But if it's close, preventive officiating would dictate that you give a small warning to the player." I was speaking of a situation where the player didn't dunk but came close to doing it. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[crew]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
[QUOTE

You're knew here so I'll tell you what most of us already know. When dealing with rule situations, opinions mean very little to those of us who are students of the game. Can you reference a rule that backs up your stand that "there are certain situations where players are not entitled to the position they are in?" Because I can, and will, give your reasons why several of the situations you present are not fouls on the defender.

4-34.37 incidental contact
art 3. contact thay does not hinder the opponent from participating in normal defensive or offensive movements shall be incidental.
this play hinders a rebounders natural movement
art 6. when a player approaches an opponent from behind or a position from which the player has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibilty for the contact will be of that player in the unfavorable position.
the player on the floor has no chance to play the ball and he is in unfavorable positioning.

and to ref. unnatural positioning.

4-33.34 handsand arms, use of
art 5. it shall be illegal to extend ones arms fully or partially other than vertically so that the freedom of movementof an opponent is hindered when contact with the extended arms occurs.
art 6. it shall be illegal to extend ones elbows when ones
c. when ones arms are horizontal to the playing court.
note: these illegal positions are most commonly used rebounding, screening, or in the various aspects of play.

these are all solid references to support the foul being called.

[BktBallRef]

So, I guess case play 10.6.1E and the NF is wrong, too.

We disagree, so there's no need to discuss it any further.

[crew]

im not saying nf is wrong. i am saying there are different perspectives to this play.

[Edited by crew on Dec 18th, 2001 at 01:30 AM]