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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 09:32pm
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What would you tell this coach

A1 is dribbling up the court, B1 contacts A1 with the hand but the action does not re- direct or cause a hindrance in the offensive players normal movement. A1 beats the contact and passes off when he reaches half court. Team A's coach says, "ref we are getting hand checked every time down the court" I know we hear this all the time in almost every game we work. What would you tell this coach?
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 09:35pm
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:04pm
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 10:05pm
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I agree I would say absolutely nothing. The only chance of me saying anything is if I am standing right next to the coach. It would be a very short conversation.

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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 11:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
A1 is dribbling up the court, B1 contacts A1 with the hand but the action does not re- direct or cause a hindrance in the offensive players normal movement. A1 beats the contact and passes off when he reaches half court. Team A's coach says, "ref we are getting hand checked every time down the court" I know we hear this all the time in almost every game we work. What would you tell this coach?

The first time B1 puts his hand on A1, I am going to say "hands off." The second time B1 puts his hand on A1 I am going to charge B1 with a common foul for hand checking.

With all due respect to the fact the B1's actions did not redirect or cause a hinderance in A1 movements, there is absolutely no reason for B1 to put his hand on A1. A1 is directly in front of B1. Why does B1 have to touch him? He does not need to touch him.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Mon Apr 16, 2007, 11:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The first time B1 puts his hand on A1, I am going to say "hands off." The second time B1 puts his hand on A1 I am going to charge B1 with a common foul for hand checking.

With all due respect to the fact the B1's actions did not redirect or cause a hinderance in A1 movements, there is absolutely no reason for B1 to put his hand on A1. A1 is directly in front of B1. Why does B1 have to touch him? He does not need to touch him.

MTD, Sr.

Why would you say "hands off" to the player? Why would you call a foul for handchecking when the actions are NOT illegal? With all due respect the fact is that this action does not violate 4-24-5 or 4-24-6. You might want to rethink this one.

I also looked at the POE from 2003-04 and this action doesn't meet those either.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Mon Apr 16, 2007 at 11:41pm.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 01:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why would you say "hands off" to the player? Why would you call a foul for handchecking when the actions are NOT illegal? With all due respect the fact is that this action does not violate 4-24-5 or 4-24-6. You might want to rethink this one.

I also looked at the POE from 2003-04 and this action doesn't meet those either.
Hey Nevada what would you say if the coach was right next to you. That happened to me in a game this weekend. I said coach, they are beating the contact and it's not causing a hindrance in the opponents movement. Correct if Im wrong in order for a foul to occur there has to be 3 things: Contact, the contact has to be illegal, the contact has to cause a hindrance in the opponents movement. I told the coach once the contact cause a hindrance in the movement I have a foul he looked at me and thought i was speaking a foreign language. He was like can my players do it. I was said as long as it doesn't cause a hindrance in the opponents movement. He looked at me and my partner said, as long there is no advantage gained. The coach later told his player that, its ok guys the refs are used tp calling the game a different way and we will probably never see it again. Is it me putting a college philosophy into the game or what? If they are playing through it I have nothing. Do you have any pointers or somethings I can say to a coach.

Tommy
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 01:33am
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The way the play is described, the hand contact sounds like a reactionary touch.....and did not affect the play.

If it starts to impede or is about to escalate, I'm dealing with it - "hands" and then a foul if necessary.

As much as coaches whine about supposed "handchecks" - one thing they all absolutely hate, without exception, is a ticky tack handcheck call.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 01:56am
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Tommy,
The coach did not ask you a question. He made a statement. His statement was quite likely untrue. Coaches usually do that.
My best advice is to ignore statements, but answer questions while being as brief as possible.
Trying to explain the nuances of the rules to coaches is pointless. The majority of them don't care about the rules. They only want to get calls for their team. That is their job. Don't ever forget that.

Just call the game as you believe that it should be called and the players will adjust.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 08:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Why would you say "hands off" to the player? Why would you call a foul for handchecking when the actions are NOT illegal? With all due respect the fact is that this action does not violate 4-24-5 or 4-24-6. You might want to rethink this one.

I also looked at the POE from 2003-04 and this action doesn't meet those either.

NevadaRef:

The question I pose to you and everybody is why does B1 need to put his hands on A1. A1 is dribbling the ball right in front of him. There is no reason for B1 to put his hands on A1. B1 has committed a hand checking foul. If you nip this kind of illegal contact early on in the game, then you decrease the chance for rougher illegal contact later in the game.

I am going to hate myself for what I about to say, but I am "old school" about this kind of contact. There is no reason for it. It has always been illegal, but over the years officials have allowed this type of contact to go unpenalized and hence play becomes rougher and rougher.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 08:38am
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I agree with others. If the coach isn't asking a direct question ignore it. If he does, tell him what you did. No advantage gained. Another thing to consider is when the contact occurred in the game. I like to go out and find a hand check early just to get them off each other.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRef21
A1 is dribbling up the court, B1 contacts A1 with the hand but the action does not re- direct or cause a hindrance in the offensive players normal movement. A1 beats the contact and passes off when he reaches half court. Team A's coach says, "ref we are getting hand checked every time down the court" I know we hear this all the time in almost every game we work. What would you tell this coach?
Incidental contact.
If you don't like contact then go play tennis, or consider playing a different sport. Basketball is a contact sport, read rule 4-27. Basketball is not a collision sport.

Though the rule does not specificially say, I will not allow contact on the dribbler backcourt to frontcourt. No touching the offensive player bringing the ball up the court. This is a NBA rule that I agree with. Like MTD said, get this contact early and it really cleans the game up for you.
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 09:28am
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I thought by NFHS standards, mere contact does NOT constitute a foul. Are we all in agreement with this?
If I were standing beside coach & felt the need to reply, "No harm no foul sir".
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 10:13am
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Old Tue Apr 17, 2007, 10:34am
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The general rule is, don't respond at all to statements, give a short neutral answer to a reasonable question. However, I find that occasionally, when a coach is making a statement in a way that could be addressed, a simple, "I hear you coach" or, "Thank you, coach" will back him or her off. It can help prevent the emotion from escalating. I'd do that in this case if the coach said it again.
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