Hand part of the ball?

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Crazy,

I think you're right about the rulebook. But here in Canada, every official that I've worked with uses the same principle as our American friends. The hand is part of the ball, figuratively speaking.

I would be curious as to what is the official FIBA interpretation? I find it hard to believe that it would be a foul in International basketball to slap the hand of a player holding the ball. Then again, this is the same organization that says it not basket intereference for a defensive player to touch the ball by going through the bottom of the basket.

J

I was hoping to bring out a rule quote here and say that you're wrong about going through the bottom of the basket not being a violation. And it was damned close I was going to say you're right, until I looked a little closer. Firstly I found this:

13.2.2 Reaching through the basket from beneath and touching the ball during a pass or rebound is a violation.
translated from swedish
But later on, this comes up:
31.2.4Illegal touching of the ball occurs when
...
a player reaches through the basket and touches the ball
...
also translated

So, reaching through the basket and touch the ball has to be a violation. At least in my book.

About the hand and the ball thing I can't find a rules quote. Nothing about it being alowed or not being allowed to slap the hand of a dribbler. So I'll keep looking, but at least I've been thought the ball and hand are separate things, and hitting the hand is illegal.

And about the blocks, yes offcourse the best blocks are the one when the ball has left the hand and when the defender gets the ball back. But, a lot of blocks occur when the ball is still in the hand, and imo those should be allowed, if the offensive player doesn't shield the ball, too bad, jmo.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

I was hoping to bring out a rule quote here and say that you're wrong about going through the bottom of the basket not being a violation. And it was damned close I was going to say you're right, until I looked a little closer. Firstly I found this:

13.2.2 Reaching through the basket from beneath and touching the ball during a pass or rebound is a violation.
translated from swedish
But later on, this comes up:
31.2.4Illegal touching of the ball occurs when
...
a player reaches through the basket and touches the ball
...
also translated

So, reaching through the basket and touch the ball has to be a violation. At least in my book.

Jay didn't say it wasn't a violation. He said it isn't basket interference. If it was basket interference, the points would be awarded. If it's not, then the offense gets the ball back at the nearest spot.

Originally Posted by crazy voyager

About the hand and the ball thing I can't find a rules quote. Nothing about it being alowed or not being allowed to slap the hand of a dribbler. So I'll keep looking, but at least I've been thought the ball and hand are separate things, and hitting the hand is illegal.

And about the blocks, yes offcourse the best blocks are the one when the ball has left the hand and when the defender gets the ball back. But, a lot of blocks occur when the ball is still in the hand, and imo those should be allowed, if the offensive player doesn't shield the ball, too bad, jmo.

To me, this is obvious, and it's funny that it's even debated. It kind of reminds me of the old 6 on 6 girls rule that prohibited a defensive player from slapping the ball while it was in the offensive player's hand; unless the offensive player was standing in the lane.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Jay R

I think you're right about the rulebook. But here in Canada, every official that I've worked with uses the same principle as our American friends. The hand is part of the ball, figuratively speaking.

I would be curious as to what is the official FIBA interpretation? I find it hard to believe that it would be a foul in International basketball to slap the hand of a player holding the ball. Then again, this is the same organization that says it not basket intereference for a defensive player to touch the ball by going through the bottom of the basket.

There used to be a rule about the hand in contact with the ball. During some reorganization of the rulebook, they apparently forgot to insert it. It has happened many times There is no official interpretation that I know of. But officials act usually just as if the rule existed.

Once they forgot to insert a rule about basket interference: for a while it was legal to touch the ball after it touched the ring even when (a) the official had blown the whistle for a foul or (b) play time had expired. Imagine that Now they switched back and declared illegal (basket interference) such actions, if the ball is above ring level, of course.

This however is a patent contradiction with the rule that says that a try ends when the ball touches the ring (a modification introduced some time ago and not advertised). Well, at least some real basketball rule is preserved.

However, you are not completely correct in the rule about reaching through the basket and touching the ball: it is still basket interference if the ball is inside the basket or it has not yet touched the ring on a try (31.2.4).

[crazy voyager]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

There used to be a rule about the hand in contact with the ball. During some reorganization of the rulebook, they apparently forgot to insert it. It has happened many times There is no official interpretation that I know of. But officials act usually just as if the rule existed.

Once they forgot to insert a rule about basket interference: for a while it was legal to touch the ball after it touched the ring even when (a) the official had blown the whistle for a foul or (b) play time had expired. Imagine that Now they switched back and declared illegal (basket interference) such actions, if the ball is above ring level, of course.

This however is a patent contradiction with the rule that says that a try ends when the ball touches the ring (a modification introduced some time ago and not advertised). Well, at least some real basketball rule is preserved.

However, you are not completely correct in the rule about reaching through the basket and touching the ball: it is still basket interference if the ball is inside the basket or it has not yet touched the ring on a try (31.2.4).

Ouch, I missed a part in my post, it should be like this

31.2.4Illegal touching of the ball during a try for a goal occurs when

it should be like that, and this is off course basket interference, so points should be awarded.

[QuebecRef87]

Reaching through the basket and touching the ball IS basket interference. See FIBA rule 31.2.4.

Other than that, I am 100% sure that the hands are "part of the ball" per FIBA rules (only when a defender is trying to play the ball). It is not specified in the rulebook nor the casebook (at least I can't find it) but I recall reading an answer from the FIBA Rules Interpreter at http://www.fibaamericas.com/rc_us.asp that said so.

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by QuebecRef87

Reaching through the basket and touching the ball IS basket interference. See FIBA rule 31.2.4.

Other than that, I am 100% sure that the hands are "part of the ball" per FIBA rules (only when a defender is trying to play the ball). It is not specified in the rulebook nor the casebook (at least I can't find it) but I recall reading an answer from the FIBA Rules Interpreter at http://www.fibaamericas.com/rc_us.asp that said so.

Rule 31.2.4 is a reference to basket interference during a field goal. In FIBA rules, the field goal attempt ends when the ball touches the rim, this situation only applies to a ball that has not yet touched the rim.

If a player reaches through the basket after the ball has touched the rim and it is bouncing above, it is considered a violation instead of BI.

This situation could be solved if FIBA treated the imaginary cylinder above the rim the same as NCAA, NFHS and NBA. This is my least favourite FIBA rule, once the ball touches the rim it is open season.

J

[QuebecRef87]

Originally Posted by Jay R

Rule 31.2.4 is a reference to basket interference during a field goal. In FIBA rules, the field goal attempt ends when the ball touches the rim, this situation only applies to a ball that has not yet touched the rim.

If a player reaches through the basket after the ball has touched the rim and it is bouncing above, it is considered a violation instead of BI.

This situation could be solved if FIBA treated the imaginary cylinder above the rim the same as NCAA, NFHS and NBA. This is my least favourite FIBA rule, once the ball touches the rim it is open season.

J

You're right, I missed that one. I never had this situation happen to me but I don't see myself explaining that one to the coach who thinks he's been stolen 2 points!