Women's Championship Game

[Adam]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

Guys this is not up for debate.

You've been around long enough to know better.

[OHBBREF]

I'll conceed per the Case play on the pass
But with regard to stoping the dribble and then directly starting a dribble I am holding out bassed on the interpretation of Palming (illegal dribble) -
because the violation occurs when the dribble starts after the ball has come to rest in the hand.

I am saying that htere may be more than one answer here depending on the situation.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

I'll conceed per the Case play on the pass
But with regard to stoping the dribble and then directly starting a dribble I am holding out bassed on the interpretation of Palming (illegal dribble) -
because the violation occurs when the dribble starts after the ball has come to rest in the hand.

I am saying that htere may be more than one answer here depending on the situation.

What interpretation of palming are referring too? "Palming" is really just another term for ending a dribble. When the player starts another dribble and ends that dribble is when the violation occurs NOT when the player palms the ball!

Rule 4-15-4 ...The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
e. The ball becomes dead.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

What interpretation of palming are referring too? "Palming" is really just another term for ending a dribble. When the player starts another dribble and ends that dribble is when the violation occurs NOT when the player palms the ball!

So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again? I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

Points of emphisis Men NCAA 2006/7

The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes the ball either to the side or in front of him commits and indefensible violation that must be called.

"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Points of emphisis Men NCAA 2006/7

The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes the ball either to the side or in front of him commits and indefensible violation that must be called.

"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.

And if he doesn't touch the ball again after pushing the ball to the floor, then he hasn't dribbled again. There is no "continue the dribble". He didn't continue anything.

It's that simple.

If you use your definition, you would have to call an illegal second dribble every time a player ended a dribble and then threw a bounce pass.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if he doesn't touch the ball again after pushing the ball to the floor, then he hasn't dribbled again. There is no "continue the dribble". He didn't continue anything.

It's that simple.

If you use your definition, you would have to call an illegal second dribble every time a player ended a dribble and then threw a bounce pass.

The rules, taken with the case plays, do leave room for debate on this. The judgment of an official (not one's ability to "read minds") is a common part of interpreting how the rules are to be applied (was it a shot attempt or a pass? was the contact intentional or incidental? etc.), and the key to defining the point at which a double dribble occurs seems to be whether the official determines that a pass was attempted or a dribble was to be continued. If a pass was attempted, then the dribbler must touch the ball again before the pass can be ruled a dribble; if, in the judgment of the official, a second dribble was begun, then the violation is immediate.

[OHBBREF]

JR
You responded before I edited my response:
So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again?
I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

That is not how/when a palming violation is called at any level it is called as soon as the ball is started back to the floor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

The rules, taken with the case plays, do leave room for debate on this. The judgment of an official (not one's ability to "read minds") is a common part of interpreting how the rules are to be applied (was it a shot attempt or a pass? was the contact intentional or incidental? etc.), and the key to defining the point at which a double dribble occurs seems to be whether the official determines that a pass was attempted or a dribble was to be continued. If a pass was attempted, then the dribbler must touch the ball again before the pass can be ruled a dribble; if, in the judgment of the official, a second dribble was begun, then the violation is immediate.

That's exactly why the vast majority of officials imo will always judge an airball to be a try. They would have to be a mind reader to know that the player intended to pass the ball instead of shoot.

The other option after ending the dribble would be a fumble, which is also legal to go and get. Whether it was a fumble vs. a pass vs. a dribble is always a judgment call too.

One of the oldest adages in officiating is "If you aren't sure, don't call it". Speaking my own behalf, I can't be sure that a player meant to dribble until he actually does dribble. Sorry, but I'm not going to call any violation until I'm sure that one has actually been committed. If you blow your whistle, and the dribbler then turns away from the ball before touching it again, you have some mighty tall 'splaining to do if asked. And I don't have a clue personally how you could explain it.