Women's Championship Game

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

If she picked up the ball it could not have been a double (illegal) dribble - that requires you to dribble again after holding the ball. It could have been ruled a travel, but I think not.
She clearly fumbled the ball while trying to pass.
However, I do not think she could dribble again with out it being ruled an illegal dribble, because she had put two hands on the ball prior to the fumble.

I thought when I first saw it that she could pick it up....but with my DVR instant replay on my couch and the beneft of unlimited replays ...

Player dribbled, picked up the ball with both hands to throw to a teammate. Her teammate's back is turned and the defender was going to steal the pass.

Player reroutes the ball back towards herself and it bounces on the floor in front of her.

The only thing you have to determine on this play is if she fumbled the ball or purposely choose not to throw it b/c of the defender. IMO she was purposely not throwing it for that reason, therefore it would have been a double dribble IF she had touched the ball again.

I do agree with JoeTheRef that she should have just picked it up and taken the chance.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

The only thing you have to determine on this play is if she fumbled the ball or purposely choose not to throw it b/c of the defender. IMO she was purposely not throwing it for that reason, therefore it would have been a double dribble IF she had touched the ball again.

First let me clarify I am not saying she could or could not pick up the ball without a violation being called here, I have only seen the play at full speed and was not really paying attention.
I am saying is that had she picked up the ball - if there was a violation - it would not have been for illegally dribbling the ball .
Reasoning:
A dribble starts with batting or throwing the ball to the floor.
So since she had picked the ball up ending her dribble and thrown or batted it to the floor that would be the illegal dribble right there.
So since the whistle did not blow at that point picking up the ball at this point has nothing to do with the illegal dribble.
It could have been a travel - lifting and replacing the pivot on the floor.

but I would guess that it was a fumble and nothing would have been called - to the dismay of a lot of fans.

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

First let me clarify I am not saying she could or could not pick up the ball without a violation being called here, I have only seen the play at full speed and was not really paying attention.
I am saying is that had she picked up the ball - if there was a violation - it would not have been for illegally dribbling the ball .
Reasoning:
A dribble starts with batting or throwing the ball to the floor.
So since she had picked the ball up ending her dribble and thrown or batted it to the floor that would be the illegal dribble right there.
So since the whistle did not blow at that point picking up the ball at this point has nothing to do with the illegal dribble.
It could have been a travel - lifting and replacing the pivot on the floor.

This is incorrect.

Player dribbles the ball, picks it up and then starts to dribble again (by throwing the ball towards the floor). Then the player realizes that she had already dribbled and so she does not touch the ball again. This is NOT an "illegal dribble" it would be if she touches the ball again.

[OHBBREF]

Definitions
Section 15 Art … 3 the dribble may be started by pushin, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.
Art …4 the dribble ends when;
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

Violations and Penalties
Section 5: Illegal Dribble
Aplayer shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of;
Art 1 … A try for field goal,
Art 2 … A bat by an opponent,
Art 3 … A pass or fumble which has then touched or been touched by, another player.

So you are saying that – the illegal dribble does not occur until the ball is touched the second time but the dribble starts when the ball is batted to the floor?

Ex. A1 standing still legally starts his/her dribble by batting the ball to the floor, and moves toward the basket, after several steps A1 places both hands on the ball then intentionally bats the ball to the floor again and;
a. Continues to dribble
b. Runs along side the ball, without touching it.
You have an illegal dribble in one and not in the other?

I believe that the violation occurs when the dribble starts.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

Ex. A1 standing still legally starts his/her dribble by batting the ball to the floor, and moves toward the basket, after several steps A1 places both hands on the ball then intentionally bats the ball to the floor again and;
a. Continues to dribble
b. Runs along side the ball, without touching it.
You have an illegal dribble in one and not in the other?

I believe that the violation occurs when the dribble starts.

DD in a.

Nothing in b.

Otherwise a bounce pass would be a DD.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

DD in a.

Nothing in b.

Otherwise a bounce pass would be a DD.

A bounce pass is a pass. Unless a teammate is standing on the dribbler's shoulders, if she starts the second dribble, she's violated. I can differentiate between when a player throws a bounce pass and when a person starts a dribble. Once I make that distinction that she's started a second illegal dribble, I would violate that dribbler.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Once I make that distinction that she's started a second illegal dribble, I would violate that dribbler.

That seems like kinda of a harsh punishment!! ( )

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

Unless a teammate is standing on the dribbler's shoulders, if she starts the second dribble, she's violated.

So IOW you'll accept that there are cases where DD would be the wrong call. That's a step in the right direction.

The rule says it's illegal to dribble a second time.

It does not say it's illegal to *start* a dribble a second time. That's because you must wait for the play to continue to determine if a second dribble occurred.

Don't overthink this, it's not that hard.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

This is incorrect.

Player dribbles the ball, picks it up and then starts to dribble again (by throwing the ball towards the floor). Then the player realizes that she had already dribbled and so she does not touch the ball again. This is NOT an "illegal dribble" it would be if she touches the ball again.

Can you not have a dribble after the dribble has started? I have the violation as soon as the second dribble starts.

[Adam]

I'm going to lay this out so my brain can understand it since I haven't seen the play.

1. A1 has picked up her dribble.
2. A1 starts to pass but re-thinks and either attempts to hold the ball or redirects her pass downward.

Can A1 pick up the ball? If this is not considered a fumble, she cannot pick up the ball, it would be an illegal dribble. It's the same play you have if the player, after having picked up a dribble, passes the ball and proceeds to chase it down. Once they touch the ball, it becomes a dribble.

In this case, it's a violation even if she didn't move her pivot foot (again, assuming it's not ruled a fumble), because it becomes an illegal dribble once she .

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm going to lay this out so my brain can understand it since I haven't seen the play.

1. A1 has picked up her dribble.
2. A1 starts to pass but re-thinks and either attempts to hold the ball or redirects her pass downward.

Can A1 pick up the ball? If this is not considered a fumble, she cannot pick up the ball, it would be an illegal dribble. It's the same play you have if the player, after having picked up a dribble, passes the ball and proceeds to chase it down. Once they touch the ball, it becomes a dribble.

In this case, it's a violation even if she didn't move her pivot foot (again, assuming it's not ruled a fumble), because it becomes an illegal dribble once she .

Your description of what happened is accurate. She dribbled, picked up her dribble and then went to pass. She tried to re-direct the pass as it got away from her, and then realized she couldn't pick it up again. It would have been DD as soon as she touched it.