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All_Heart Wed Apr 04, 2007 02:25pm
Guys this is not up for debate. The relevent case play (9.5) was listed and this tells you all you need to know.

The act of throwing the ball to the floor starts a dribble BUT a double dribble can not take place until the ball returns to the dribbler's hand.

Here is the NCAA "case play"

Quote:
A.R. 81. A1, after (a) receiving a pass, or (b) ending his dribble, passes the ball to A2. A2 leaves the area on a cut to the basket. A1 goes to the area vacated by A2 and recovers the ball. RULING: In order for a pass to occur, the thrown ball mus t be touched by another player. This did not occur in (a) or (b). In (a) A1’s attempted pass was the start of his dribble. When he recovered the ball and started another dribble, he would have committed a violation. (Had A1, after releasing his pass, which was the start of his dribble, not recovered the ball but rather continued his dribble, he would not have violated.) In (b), A1 had previously ended a dribble before his attempted pass to A2. A1’s release of the ball on his attempted pass to A2 was the start of a second dribble. When A1 recovered the ball he ended his dribble. A1 committed a violation after he touched the ball.

socalreff Wed Apr 04, 2007 02:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTheRef
After further review, I'm not violating the dribbler until he touches the second dribble after the dribble starts..
Wow, I'm not violating the dribbler ever! Yuck.

socalreff Wed Apr 04, 2007 02:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart
Guys this is not up for debate. The relevent case play (9.5) was listed and this tells you all you need to know.

The act of throwing the ball to the floor starts a dribble BUT a double dribble can not take place until the ball returns to the dribbler's hand.

Here is the NCAA "case play"

A.R. 81. A1, after (a) receiving a pass, or (b) ending his dribble, passes the ball to A2. A2 leaves the area on a cut to the basket. A1 goes to the area vacated by A2 and recovers the ball. RULING: In order for a pass to occur, the thrown ball mus t be touched by another player. This did not occur in (a) or (b). In (a) A1’s attempted pass was the start of his dribble. When he recovered the ball and started another dribble, he would have committed a violation. (Had A1, after releasing his pass, which was the start of his dribble, not recovered the ball but rather continued his dribble, he would not have violated.) In (b), A1 had previously ended a dribble before his attempted pass to A2. A1’s release of the ball on his attempted pass to A2 was the start of a second dribble. When A1 recovered the ball he ended his dribble. A1 committed a violation after he touched the ball.
All Heart, not everybody has common sense, which is a term that I think should be changed because it's not so common anymore. But I digress....
It is never a double dribble until the ball returns to the hand. A player may dribble, pick it up and "dribble" again as long as the ball never returns to his hand. It is a pass if this occurs.

Adam Wed Apr 04, 2007 02:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart
Guys this is not up for debate.
You've been around long enough to know better. ;)

OHBBREF Wed Apr 04, 2007 03:22pm
I'll conceed per the Case play on the pass
But with regard to stoping the dribble and then directly starting a dribble I am holding out bassed on the interpretation of Palming (illegal dribble) -
because the violation occurs when the dribble starts after the ball has come to rest in the hand.

I am saying that htere may be more than one answer here depending on the situation.

All_Heart Wed Apr 04, 2007 04:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF
I'll conceed per the Case play on the pass
But with regard to stoping the dribble and then directly starting a dribble I am holding out bassed on the interpretation of Palming (illegal dribble) -
because the violation occurs when the dribble starts after the ball has come to rest in the hand.

I am saying that htere may be more than one answer here depending on the situation.
What interpretation of palming are referring too? "Palming" is really just another term for ending a dribble. When the player starts another dribble and ends that dribble is when the violation occurs NOT when the player palms the ball!

Quote:
Rule 4-15-4 ...The dribble ends when:<o></o>
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.<o></o>
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.<o></o>
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.<o></o>
e. The ball becomes dead.
<o></o>

OHBBREF Thu Apr 05, 2007 06:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by All_Heart
What interpretation of palming are referring too? "Palming" is really just another term for ending a dribble. When the player starts another dribble and ends that dribble is when the violation occurs NOT when the player palms the ball!

So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again? I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

Points of emphisis Men NCAA 2006/7

The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes the ball either to the side or in front of him commits and indefensible violation that must be called.

"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.

Jurassic Referee Thu Apr 05, 2007 07:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF
Points of emphisis Men NCAA 2006/7

The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes the ball either to the side or in front of him commits and indefensible violation that must be called.

"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.
And if he doesn't touch the ball again <b>after</b> pushing the ball to the floor, then he hasn't dribbled <b>again</b>. There is no "continue the dribble". He didn't <b>continue</b> anything.

It's that simple.

If you use your definition, you would have to call an illegal second dribble every time a player ended a dribble and then threw a bounce pass.

jkjenning Thu Apr 05, 2007 09:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
And if he doesn't touch the ball again <b>after</b> pushing the ball to the floor, then he hasn't dribbled <b>again</b>. There is no "continue the dribble". He didn't <b>continue</b> anything.

It's that simple.

If you use your definition, you would have to call an illegal second dribble every time a player ended a dribble and then threw a bounce pass.
The rules, taken with the case plays, do leave room for debate on this. The judgment of an official (not one's ability to "read minds") is a common part of interpreting how the rules are to be applied (was it a shot attempt or a pass? was the contact intentional or incidental? etc.), and the key to defining the point at which a double dribble occurs seems to be whether the official determines that a pass was attempted or a dribble was to be continued. If a pass was attempted, then the dribbler must touch the ball again before the pass can be ruled a dribble; if, in the judgment of the official, a second dribble was begun, then the violation is immediate.

OHBBREF Thu Apr 05, 2007 12:18pm
JR
You responded before I edited my response:
So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again?
I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

That is not how/when a palming violation is called at any level it is called as soon as the ball is started back to the floor.

Adam Thu Apr 05, 2007 01:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OHBBREF
JR
You responded before I edited my response:
So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again?
I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

That is not how/when a palming violation is called at any level it is called as soon as the ball is started back to the floor.
I've never seen the whistle blow before the ball reaches the dribbler's hand again. You'd have to be very careful about this, as this could easily be a drop pass to A2, whom you may not see coming in behind him if you're officiating the defense. For me, it's not a violation until it hits his hand again, and if B1 hits the ball before it gets back to A1, then I'm not calling a violation on A1. I'm pretty sure I can justify this to my assigner, and I'm positive I can explain it to my satisfaction to any coach who might ask.

All_Heart Thu Apr 05, 2007 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
I'm pretty sure I can justify this to my assigner, and I'm positive I can explain it to my satisfaction to any coach who might ask.
Yep especially when you have the rules backing you up :p

Jurassic Referee Thu Apr 05, 2007 01:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkjenning
The rules, taken with the case plays, do leave room for debate on this. The judgment of an official (not one's ability to "read minds") is a common part of interpreting how the rules are to be applied (was it a shot attempt or a pass? was the contact intentional or incidental? etc.), and the key to defining the point at which a double dribble occurs seems to be whether the official determines that a pass was attempted or a dribble was to be continued. If a pass was attempted, then the dribbler must touch the ball again before the pass can be ruled a dribble; if, in the judgment of the official, a second dribble was begun, then the violation is immediate.
That's exactly why the vast majority of officials imo will </b>always</b> judge an airball to be a try. They would have to be a mind reader to <b>know</b> that the player intended to pass the ball instead of shoot.

The other option after ending the dribble would be a fumble, which is also legal to go and get. Whether it was a fumble vs. a pass vs. a dribble is always a judgment call too.

One of the oldest adages in officiating is <i>"If you aren't sure, don't call it"</i>. Speaking my own behalf, I can't be sure that a player <b>meant</b> to dribble until he actually <b>does</b> dribble. Sorry, but I'm not going to call any violation until I'm sure that one has actually been committed. If you blow your whistle, and the dribbler then turns away from the ball before touching it again, you have some mighty tall 'splaining to do if asked. And I don't have a clue personally how you could explain it.

jkjenning Thu Apr 05, 2007 03:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
That's exactly why the vast majority of officials imo will </b>always</b> judge an airball to be a try. They would have to be a mind reader to <b>know</b> that the player intended to pass the ball instead of shoot.

The other option after ending the dribble would be a fumble, which is also legal to go and get. Whether it was a fumble vs. a pass vs. a dribble is always a judgment call too.

One of the oldest adages in officiating is <i>"If you aren't sure, don't call it"</i>.
I certainly have no disagreement on how to determine, in practice, that a violation has taken place; there is room for discussion on how the rules define the exact occurence of a double dribble. The time between a double dribble starting, by rule definition, and actual contact with the dribbler is so short that I am quite certain I will not be rushing to the court to proudly show off "improved reaction time" to double dribbles! :)

Adam Thu Apr 05, 2007 06:05pm
Here's the question.
A1, who has ended his dribble, pushes the ball down for what looks like another dribble. Before A1 touches the ball following the bounce, the official whistles a double dribble violation just before a) A2 swoops in and grabs the ball or b) just before B1 kicks it.
Is the official correct? I think not.


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