Women's Championship Game
 

Things I noticed from the 1st half.

(15:08) 3 Second Violation. Player enters the lane at 15:08, receives pass at 15:07. Turns to basket, takes one dribble and shoots. C blows whistle with 15:06 on the clock for a 3 second violation.

(13:44) Great Call! Lead comes and gets travel.

(11:52) ESPN2 The announcers drawing of a guitar on the computer looks like a ***** :eek: (well here's a hint, there is only one on the court and it rhymes with Venus.)

(11:32) Great call from lead. Player is cutting along endline and defender acts like she doesn't see her and backs into the cutter.

(10:47) Parker runs down the court and dislodges defender 5 feet. Officials will probably see if she does it again or if defender was flopping some.

(6:52) PC Foul. Should have been a block! Red player is 1 foot in the air before White player establishes LGP. However she sold it well (from across the paint ;)) It definitely needed a whistle!

(1:15) Should be an offensive foul on Red #10 for holding the player from getting the ball. If she picked up the ball it would have been a double dribble, IMO. I don't believe this is a fumble like the announcers where saying b/c she rerouted the ball when she saw the defender.

2nd Half

(16:21) Great call! Tripped the ball handler.

(14:13) Blows whistle when try is in flight. Shot clock was supposed to be reset because it hits the rim but it doesn't reset at that split second so the shot clock horn goes off with ball in shooters hand. Everyone plays on but whistle blows when the ball is bouncing around the rim. I was originally thinking that it should be AP arrow because whistle blows when ball is in air on try. After second thought he probably was stopping play because of the shot clock horn going off, so at that time the player had the ball. Any thoughts?

(13:31) Good job by Lisa to call the Delay of Game Warning on the Ruetgers player for hitting ball away from Tennessee on made basket.

Overall VERY GOOD Officiated game! :)

Looks like the SEC was the top conference for this year. National champs on both sides of the aisle.

If she picked up the ball it could not have been a double (illegal) dribble - that requires you to dribble again after holding the ball. It could have been ruled a travel, but I think not.
She clearly fumbled the ball while trying to pass.
However, I do not think she could dribble again with out it being ruled an illegal dribble, because she had put two hands on the ball prior to the fumble.

You beat me to it on the double dribble. I didn't have the luxury of TIVO, but I did see the play on 5 huge big screens at the local Barnacles, and I thought she would've been okay to pick the ball up. I mean your trying to hold off 2 defenders from getting to the ball, why not just pick it up and see what happens versus holding off the defender and risk getting the foul called on you.

I thought when I first saw it that she could pick it up....but with my DVR instant replay on my couch and the beneft of unlimited replays ;)...

Player dribbled, picked up the ball with both hands to throw to a teammate. Her teammate's back is turned and the defender was going to steal the pass.

Player reroutes the ball back towards herself and it bounces on the floor in front of her.

The only thing you have to determine on this play is if she fumbled the ball or purposely choose not to throw it b/c of the defender. IMO she was purposely not throwing it for that reason, therefore it would have been a double dribble IF she had touched the ball again.

I do agree with JoeTheRef that she should have just picked it up and taken the chance.

First let me clarify I am not saying she could or could not pick up the ball without a violation being called here, I have only seen the play at full speed and was not really paying attention.
I am saying is that had she picked up the ball - if there was a violation - it would not have been for illegally dribbling the ball .
Reasoning:
A dribble starts with batting or throwing the ball to the floor.
So since she had picked the ball up ending her dribble and thrown or batted it to the floor that would be the illegal dribble right there.
So since the whistle did not blow at that point picking up the ball at this point has nothing to do with the illegal dribble.
It could have been a travel - lifting and replacing the pivot on the floor.

but I would guess that it was a fumble and nothing would have been called - to the dismay of a lot of fans.

This is incorrect.

Player dribbles the ball, picks it up and then starts to dribble again (by throwing the ball towards the floor). Then the player realizes that she had already dribbled and so she does not touch the ball again. This is NOT an "illegal dribble" it would be if she touches the ball again.

Definitions
Section 15 Art … 3 the dribble may be started by pushin, throwing or batting the ball to the floor before the pivot foot is lifted.
Art …4 the dribble ends when;
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.

Violations and Penalties
Section 5: Illegal Dribble
Aplayer shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of;
Art 1 … A try for field goal,
Art 2 … A bat by an opponent,
Art 3 … A pass or fumble which has then touched or been touched by, another player.

So you are saying that – the illegal dribble does not occur until the ball is touched the second time but the dribble starts when the ball is batted to the floor?

Ex. A1 standing still legally starts his/her dribble by batting the ball to the floor, and moves toward the basket, after several steps A1 places both hands on the ball then intentionally bats the ball to the floor again and;
a. Continues to dribble
b. Runs along side the ball, without touching it.
You have an illegal dribble in one and not in the other?

I believe that the violation occurs when the dribble starts.

DD in a.

Nothing in b.

Otherwise a bounce pass would be a DD.

Can you not have a dribble after the dribble has started? :confused: I have the violation as soon as the second dribble starts.

I'm going to lay this out so my brain can understand it since I haven't seen the play.

1. A1 has picked up her dribble.
2. A1 starts to pass but re-thinks and either attempts to hold the ball or redirects her pass downward.

Can A1 pick up the ball? If this is not considered a fumble, she cannot pick up the ball, it would be an illegal dribble. It's the same play you have if the player, after having picked up a dribble, passes the ball and proceeds to chase it down. Once they touch the ball, it becomes a dribble.

In this case, it's a violation even if she didn't move her pivot foot (again, assuming it's not ruled a fumble), because it becomes an illegal dribble once she .

A bounce pass is a pass. Unless a teammate is standing on the dribbler's shoulders, if she starts the second dribble, she's violated. I can differentiate between when a player throws a bounce pass and when a person starts a dribble. Once I make that distinction that she's started a second illegal dribble, I would violate that dribbler.

Your description of what happened is accurate. She dribbled, picked up her dribble and then went to pass. She tried to re-direct the pass as it got away from her, and then realized she couldn't pick it up again. It would have been DD as soon as she touched it.

That seems like kinda of a harsh punishment!! (:eek: )

So IOW you'll accept that there are cases where DD would be the wrong call. That's a step in the right direction.

The rule says it's illegal to dribble a second time.

It does not say it's illegal to *start* a dribble a second time. That's because you must wait for the play to continue to determine if a second dribble occurred.

Don't overthink this, it's not that hard.

Well, kinda depends on a number of factors, don't you think?

LOL! Thanks for the laugh! :D:D:D:D:D

The thing is, a bounce pass becomes a dribble once the passer touches it first.

correct - but a dribble becomes a dribble when it starts.
there are times when you have to wait and see but if a play stops their dribble and then starts to dribble they have violated once the ball hits the floor.
Example
player A1 has stopped thier dribble and then bats the ball to the floor to start a dribble -
a)On the way to the floor the ball is hit by player B1
b) The ball hits the floor and the ball is batted OB by player B1
c)On the way to the floor the ball is hit by player A2
d)The ball hits the floor and is coming back to A1

I have
nothing in A and C
illegal dribble in B and D

But it's not illegal to start a dribble a second time.

After further review, I'm not violating the dribbler until he touches the second dribble after the dribble starts..

If in caseplay 9.5 A1 dribbles stops and throws the ball off the opponents backboard or an official and catches the rebound constitutes another dribble the caseplay specifically says the violation doesn't occur until A1 is the first one to touch the ball.

If you start a dribble a second time - are you not dribbling a second time?

is that not illegal?

There are cases where you have to wait to make the violation call agreed
and the OP we are discussing is one of those.
however;
if a player is standing still and dribbling with no other players around, the ball comes to rest in two hands and the player then bats the ball directly to the floor as soon as the ball hits the floor they have dribbled and violated. because they have clearly stared a dribble.

there are cases where batting the ball up court or in the air may not clearly have started a dribble, so you would have to wait.

Nope. <b> </b>

Sound right to say no violation in B and technically no violation in D either.
From the case play the intent of the rule seems clear that a dribble is not defined as an actual dribble until the ball first returns to the player who started the dribble. This does seem to contradict the definition of dribble, where the dribble begins when the ball is pushed to the floor... the difference between dribble and double dribble.

Sounds inconsistent - if an isolated player is starting a dribble then he/she is going to let the ball return to their hand... if instead they realize they cannot dribble and back away - the consistent thing to do would be no violation.

No and yes.<i></i>

I'll disagree with myself and say the key is whether it can be determined that a pass was the intent, which is the case in the situation discussed - so no violation after a pass until the dribbler is the first to touch the pass. That means a violation in D) above because the intent was to dribble.

Cool. You can read minds.

Sure wish I could.

Guys this is not up for debate. The relevent case play (9.5) was listed and this tells you all you need to know.

The act of throwing the ball to the floor starts a dribble BUT a double dribble can not take place until the ball returns to the dribbler's hand.

Here is the NCAA "case play"

Wow, I'm not violating the dribbler ever! Yuck.

All Heart, not everybody has common sense, which is a term that I think should be changed because it's not so common anymore. But I digress....
It is never a double dribble until the ball returns to the hand. A player may dribble, pick it up and "dribble" again as long as the ball never returns to his hand. It is a pass if this occurs.

You've been around long enough to know better. ;)

I'll conceed per the Case play on the pass
But with regard to stoping the dribble and then directly starting a dribble I am holding out bassed on the interpretation of Palming (illegal dribble) -
because the violation occurs when the dribble starts after the ball has come to rest in the hand.

I am saying that htere may be more than one answer here depending on the situation.

What interpretation of palming are referring too? "Palming" is really just another term for ending a dribble. When the player starts another dribble and ends that dribble is when the violation occurs NOT when the player palms the ball!

<o></o>

So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again? I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

Points of emphisis Men NCAA 2006/7

The dribbler, who during a high or hesitation dribble, causes the ball to come to rest and then pushes the ball either to the side or in front of him commits and indefensible violation that must be called.

"Palming" is an illegal maneuver. When the ball comes to rest in the dribbler's hand, by rule, the dribble has ended. Continuing to dribble after the ball has come to rest in the hand is a violation and should be called.

And if he doesn't touch the ball again <b>after</b> pushing the ball to the floor, then he hasn't dribbled <b>again</b>. There is no "continue the dribble". He didn't <b>continue</b> anything.

It's that simple.

If you use your definition, you would have to call an illegal second dribble every time a player ended a dribble and then threw a bounce pass.

The rules, taken with the case plays, do leave room for debate on this. The judgment of an official (not one's ability to "read minds") is a common part of interpreting how the rules are to be applied (was it a shot attempt or a pass? was the contact intentional or incidental? etc.), and the key to defining the point at which a double dribble occurs seems to be whether the official determines that a pass was attempted or a dribble was to be continued. If a pass was attempted, then the dribbler must touch the ball again before the pass can be ruled a dribble; if, in the judgment of the official, a second dribble was begun, then the violation is immediate.

JR
You responded before I edited my response:
So you are telling me that after the ball comes to rest and is again pushed to the floor you do not have a palming violation until the player touches the ball again?
I really have to disagree with that one. the palming or carrying violation, occurs as soon as the ball is pushed back toward the floor.

That is not how/when a palming violation is called at any level it is called as soon as the ball is started back to the floor.

I've never seen the whistle blow before the ball reaches the dribbler's hand again. You'd have to be very careful about this, as this could easily be a drop pass to A2, whom you may not see coming in behind him if you're officiating the defense. For me, it's not a violation until it hits his hand again, and if B1 hits the ball before it gets back to A1, then I'm not calling a violation on A1. I'm pretty sure I can justify this to my assigner, and I'm positive I can explain it to my satisfaction to any coach who might ask.

Yep especially when you have the rules backing you up :p

That's exactly why the vast majority of officials imo will </b>always</b> judge an airball to be a try. They would have to be a mind reader to <b>know</b> that the player intended to pass the ball instead of shoot.

The other option after ending the dribble would be a fumble, which is also legal to go and get. Whether it was a fumble vs. a pass vs. a dribble is always a judgment call too.

One of the oldest adages in officiating is <i>"If you aren't sure, don't call it"</i>. Speaking my own behalf, I can't be sure that a player <b>meant</b> to dribble until he actually <b>does</b> dribble. Sorry, but I'm not going to call any violation until I'm sure that one has actually been committed. If you blow your whistle, and the dribbler then turns away from the ball before touching it again, you have some mighty tall 'splaining to do if asked. And I don't have a clue personally how you could explain it.

I certainly have no disagreement on how to determine, in practice, that a violation has taken place; there is room for discussion on how the rules define the exact occurence of a double dribble. The time between a double dribble starting, by rule definition, and actual contact with the dribbler is so short that I am quite certain I will not be rushing to the court to proudly show off "improved reaction time" to double dribbles! :)

Here's the question.
A1, who has ended his dribble, pushes the ball down for what looks like another dribble. Before A1 touches the ball following the bounce, the official whistles a double dribble violation just before a) A2 swoops in and grabs the ball or b) just before B1 kicks it.
Is the official correct? I think not.

Nor do I, but the official could be thinking quite narrowly about the rules and, technically, the rules would back him/her up since their judgment that another dribble had begun agrees with the definition of the start of a dribble. ;)

Palming ???
 

In my opinion, "Palming" could be considered a form of traveling, or an illegal (double) dribble, depending on how you view the violation.

Until a few years ago, it was technically either a double dribble or a travel, depending on which happened first. They added the palming designation recently.

the Palming designation has existed for years a number of years ago the signal was dropped from useage and the illegal dribble signal was used, just about two years ago it was brought back because it specifically addressed the violation that was again brought to the points of emphasis.