NCAAA Final

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

I agree with you 100%. The player responsible for the contact should get the foul. It appears that a disproportionate number of calls have been made in favor of the defensive player even when the defensive player has NOT established position, imo.

How do you define establishing position?

I ask because we've discussed quite a few plays on here recently that have been on national TV, and most have either been extremely close or have been unanimously (among officials here anyway) considered to have been legitimate PC fouls.

In fact, I think the one time there was disagreement here over a nationally televised block/charge call was when the call on the floor was a block, and we pretty much agreed it should have been a charge (also, however, that it was close enough to forgive the block call.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

You are certainly entitled to that opinion. I can assure you that when you are actually on the floor, things look entirely different. Officials are taught to referee the defense so while you, as a fan are probably watching the ball, the official is watching the defender get into position. Before I was an official, I was very much a fan. I'd sit in the upper deck yelling and screaming about calls. Then, after the first minute of my first game, I realized that it was much different when you are actually out there and I didn't have any idea what I was yelling about.

I understand where you are coming from. It can be one of the most difficult plays to call in basketball. When I watch a game, though, I do review it (via DVR) a great deal while the game is going on and in the vast majority of times I would say I get it right the first time. Not all the time but certainly more often than not. Just as all officials are not entirely competent by taking courses and suiting up, not all fans are out to lunch, as some seem to feel on this site. I have played a lot of ball, have received my fair share of accolades in the sport, and even officiated my boys at the lower levels. I have seen good officiating and I have seen atrocious officiating. It comes with the turf. We are all human. What I am getting at though, regarding the correct call on the charge/block issue and so many other intracacies of the game, is the game seems to have somewhat spiraled out of control. I am not putting the blame on the officials as much as I am those who oversee the direction of the game. I know the officials only implement the rules dictated to them.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by earmitage

When I watch a game, though, I do review it (via DVR) a great deal while the game is going on and in the vast majority of times I would say I get it right the first time.

What does this mean?

You sit on the couch with beer in 1 hand and remote in the other mumbling "yep yep, he go that one wrong too" while 'reviewing' the calls and no calls made during a televised games?

How precious.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by earmitage

What I am getting at though, regarding the correct call on the charge/block issue and so many other intracacies of the game, is the game seems to have somewhat spiraled out of control. I am not putting the blame on the officials as much as I am those who oversee the direction of the game. I know the officials only implement the rules dictated to them.

This takes us back to my earlier question. How would you have the rule worded, then?

[Junker]

You sound like a pretty well informed fan. You'll find, around this site, as long as you are asking legitimate questions and considering the responses before you reply, you'll get some pretty good information. You are correct that the game has changed over time. Athletes are bigger and stronger and the powers that be (NCAA administrators, assignors and coaches) do dictate how the game is called. If you want to continue to work in their leagues, you call the game they want. For better or worse, that is the way it is at all levels. A good example is the Oden hanging on the rim thread. I completely understand why he isn't given a T at that level for obviously violating the rule. As a fan and an official not moving up the chain I'd like to see that T called because it is something in the game that I don't think belongs there. Just to show I'm not biased, I think the Florida player that did the little shimmy-dance after he dunked should have gotten a T as well, but then I'm not on that game and the officials that were are there for a reason.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What does this mean?

You sit on the couch with beer in 1 hand and remote in the other mumbling "yep yep, he go that one wrong too" while 'reviewing' the calls and no calls made during a televised games?

How precious.

How can you say that, Dan(he said in an outraged voice)?

Didn't you read the part where this gentleman said that he had played a lot of ball? And not only that, he has also received his fair share of accolades in the sport? That certainly should mean a heckuva more than the poor schnook that only reads the rulebooks, learns the mechanics, does hundreds of games at all levels to get experience, goes to camps, and then spends many years learning about officiating before finally working his way up to getting some NCAA assignments.

I really think that next year the NCAA should hold a lottery and let 3 winning fans officiate the final game. The only prerequisite to enter might be that they have "played the game". Or maybe "watched the game" if they think that those restrictions are too severe.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by TRef21

Officials:
Hess
Greene
Corbet

Someone tell Packer to shut up. Not even 3 mins in he said the first foul was ticky tack. He need to put the shirt and blow a whistle.

Does anybody think that Tony Greene got told by Hank Nichols that if he turned down the NBA that he would all but work the NCAA Championship? Just throwing it out there. Do you think he got told anything of that nature?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Does anybody think that Tony Greene got told by Hank Nichols that if he turned down the NBA that he would all but work the NCAA Championship? Just throwing it out there. Do you think he got told anything of that nature?

That's exactly what was said. Hank realized the shortage of quality officials and he knew if he kept losing them, he would have to start pulling them Old School officials out of retirement.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

That's exactly what was said. Hank realized the shortage of quality officials and he knew if he kept losing them, he would have to start pulling them Old School officials out of retirement.

Maybe he could give some new guys a chance?!?!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BC22

If they touched Oden they were whistled for a foul. Even when Richards had his arm against Oden's back to keep Oden from leaning back and pushing him down under the basket Richards was whistled. Just absolutely atrocious officiating, particularly by Corbett. Just awful.

Originally Posted by BC22

But, again, sticking to the facts, how could you interpret Horford's defense on Oden as a foul a minute and a half into the game? How can Richards be whistled for a foul for placing his arm, not elbow, up against Oden to keep him from backing him down?

I've played a lot of basketball, both high school and college. You needn't attempt to denigrate my observations by classifying me as simply "joe fan." In fact that tells a great deal about your mindset regarding those who are watching this great game.

If you would actually read the rules, you'd know how that action could be interpreted as a foul. However, you obviously haven't read them, but still you feel that it is your right to come on here and state how poorly the game was officiated, and how wrong the calls were. You are simply "Joe Fan" who thinks that he knows the rules, but really doesn't. Like 99% of those out there, you've played, but never officiated or even seen a rules book, yet you believe that you know the rules. Got news for you, your experience with the game doesn't make you an expert on NCAA officiating. You merely open your mouth and criticize before you use your mind to get fully informed about the situation. That is why you get ripped by the real officials here. BTW that is sticking to the facts.

Now here are the rules citations that you haven't ever read from the 2007 NCAA Rules Book which detail how that forearm could be interpreted to be a foul.

Points of Emphasis for Men
BR-17

Rough Physical Play and Illegal Contact

For the 10th consecutive year, an aspect of rough play is a point of
emphasis. This length of time demonstrates the rules committee’s consistent
and persistent concern that rough play must be properly addressed.
Furthermore, it highlights the need for improvement in the officiating of
rough physical play and illegal contact in the collegiate game. Motivated by
the basic premise that the collegiate game of basketball is a game of skill, it
was the committee’s contention that the officials’ focus of attention shall be
directed toward eliminating rough play and illegal contact in the low post,
off the ball, in cutting and screening situations and during hand-checking
anywhere on the playing count.
When illegal physical contact, with or without the ball in the low post,
results in a player attaining an unequal favorable position, an advantage to
perform has been gained by that player. It is consequential to observe the
offensive and defensive play in the low post from the beginning since rough

play and illegal maneuvers may cause and affect subsequent physicality.

Of special concern is the play, without the ball, in the low post by the
offensive and defensive players. An offensive low post player, dislodging a
defensive player from an established position by pushing or backing in, shall
be called for a personal foul. A post player who uses his hands, forearms
or elbows to prevent a defensive player from attaining or maintaining a
legal guarding position shall be charged with a personal foul. The player
using the “swim stroke” movement to lower the arm of an opponent shall be
assessed with a personal foul.
Likewise, a defensive low post player who uses his hands, forearms
or elbows to prevent an opponent from attaining or maintaining a legal
offensive position, shall be charged with a personal foul. Furthermore, it
shall be a personal foul when a defensive player pushes with his leg or knee

into the rear of the offensive player.

APPENDIX III / OFFICIATING GUIDELINES BR-183

Section 6. (Men) Post Play

Some guidelines to officials in making correct, consistent calls in lowpost
play:
a. Observe the entire play, especially when responsible for off-ball
coverage.
b. Anticipate the play but not the call when post players are in fronting
situations.
c. A defensive player pushing a leg or knee into the rear of the offensive
player shall be a personal foul on the defender.
d. An offensive player dislodging a defensive player from an established
position by pushing or backing in shall be a personal foul on the
offensive player.
e. A player using the “swim stroke” arm movement to lower the arm of an
opponent shall be charged with a personal foul.
f. Post players using hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position shall be charged with a personal foul.

[earmitage]

Let's stick to the facts and knock off the epithets. It only weakens your case.

There are two key points from the rules posted.

1) An offensive low post player, dislodging a defensive player from an established position by pushing or backing in, shall be called for a personal foul.

2) Likewise, a defensive low post player who uses his hands, forearms
or elbows to prevent an opponent from attaining or maintaining a legal
offensive position, shall be charged with a personal foul.

Oden was leveraging his position, alternating his shoulders and his seat, to back in, constantly. This is illegal. The defender had his position established. By contrast, referring to point 2, the Florida players were not using hands, forearms or elbows to prevent Oden from attaining or maintaining his legal position. They were doing it to prevent him from backing down. They were not pushing him out of his position.

In addition, Corbett was totally inconsistent with the way the rest of the tournament had been called, which is why I reached the conclusion I did. Again, I tip my hat to Donovan. He obviously made it clear to his players what the scenarios might be, mentally preparing them for possible outcomes. They kept their composure and he wisely distributed the fouls among various players once he saw how the game was going to be officiated.

Look, I'm no Gator fan. In fact, I would have loved to see UNC win it. I just want to see an unbiased, fairly officiated game. The officials should be there to ensure the game is played fairly, by the rules, with no advantage given to one team over another.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Junker

You sound like a pretty well informed fan. You'll find, around this site, as long as you are asking legitimate questions and considering the responses before you reply, you'll get some pretty good information. You are correct that the game has changed over time. Athletes are bigger and stronger and the powers that be (NCAA administrators, assignors and coaches) do dictate how the game is called. If you want to continue to work in their leagues, you call the game they want. For better or worse, that is the way it is at all levels. A good example is the Oden hanging on the rim thread. I completely understand why he isn't given a T at that level for obviously violating the rule. As a fan and an official not moving up the chain I'd like to see that T called because it is something in the game that I don't think belongs there. Just to show I'm not biased, I think the Florida player that did the little shimmy-dance after he dunked should have gotten a T as well, but then I'm not on that game and the officials that were are there for a reason.

I couldn't agree more. Oden, and any other player, who does a chin up on the rim while dunking should be hit with a foul, no questions asked, and that malarky would stop pronto. It makes me sick when I see officials allow this kind of garbage. It is not part of the game. If guys like Nevadaref and the rest are going cite chapter and verse from the rule book how can they possibly defend the officials allowing this? Corbett and crew should get some courage and stop that nonsense in its tracks. It was lucky Oden didn't kick anyone in the face. And the only reason he didn't is because the others players got "the message" early on. Oden is a looming star, don't mess.

[Adam]

Do you honestly think the officials give a sh!t who the star is? Or do you think the NCAA told them to protect this kid? Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

[earmitage]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Do you honestly think the officials give a sh!t who the star is? Or do you think the NCAA told them to protect this kid? Sounds like a conspiracy to me.

How about trying to give an honest answer rather than be a wise ***? Why didn't they hit him with a T when he was doing chin ups and kicking his shoes into other players' faces?

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

23.0 -> 12.3 seconds! This is the time that ran off the clock when the trail runs ahead of the ball handler and doesn't even look at him for 5 seconds (0:20 -> 0:15). What if he accidently double dribbles or something else happens (like a ten second back court violation) It serves NO purpose to run ahead of the play. I've seen this a couple of times during the tournament.

Nobody has commented on this, did anyone else see this? I am not saying that in this particular play that a 10 second call should have been called, although by rule it could have been called, BUT what I don't think is a good idea is to run ahead of the ball handler ESPECIALLY if he's not looking over his shoulder officiating him.