3.1 to 2.0?

[ATXCoach]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The freaking question has been answered fourteen freaking times so far. Go back and read the freaking answers. If you don't want to believe those freakings answers, so be it. Who cares? It's a complete waste of freaking time to give the same freaking answer over and over--again and again.

Jurassic, I believe I have read every post. The responses that I recall that mention the whistle in the context of my question seem to say (i am paraphrasing) . . .

The whistle is used to stop the clock, but since the clock never started, the whistle is irrelevant. You can't stop a stopped clock with a whistle.

Is this a fair assesment of the "fourteen freaking times" that you are refering to? If it is, then IMHO I think the NCAA should change the rule and/or procedure.

Let's change what actually happened to this hypothetical situation -
NCAA Tournament, 3.2 seconds to go, A1 inbound pass after a made free throw to A2 is first deflect by B1 off the court near the sideline and bouncing towards B's bench out of bounds. Before the ball makes any contact with any person out of bounds, B2 dives and makes a miraculous save to B3 standing legally in bounds on the court. However, the TRAIL official whistled the ball out of bounds after B1's initial deflection of the ball into the court very near the sideline, and everyone on the court except B2 stopped on the whistle. Further complicating the matter, the offical score keeper failed to start the game clock at the moment of B1's deflection. Even further complicating the matter, upon video review of the two other game officials it is deemed that the ball never actually bounced out of bounds.

So, am I to believe that the reviewing officials will make the call that since the ball was never out of bounds and was legally saved by B2 to B3 inbounds - the game is over since clearly 3.2 seconds elapsed regardless of any whistle that was blown?

Thank you for helping my understand and discuss this unique and interesting situation.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The ball was legally inbounded at 3.2 seconds. It touched a player B1 and then hit the court (that means it was still inbounds). The clock did not start. The ball then bounced high in the air and finally went OOB. No time came off the clock (that means 3.2 seconds still showed on the clock). NCAA rules allow the officials to use a monitor to fix timing errors. They used the monitor (and a stop watch I understand) to determine 1.1 seconds elapsed between the time the ball touched B1 and the time it went OOB.

This is about as simple as it gets. For those of you still saying "but he blew his whistle" it doesn't matter cuz the CLOCK NEVER STARTED!!!! Therefore they can fix the timing error using the monitor and it DOESN'T MATTER whether or not he did, or did not blow his whistle.

What is your arguement now????

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

cite please?

Okay......

According to NCAA Rule 5-13-4: "When play is resumed by a throw-in, the game clock and shot clock shall be started when the ball is legally touched by or touches a player on the playing court."

According to NCAA Rule 5-9-1&2:

"The game clock and shot clock, if running, shall be stopped when an
official:
Art. 1. Signals:
a. A foul.
b. A held ball.
c. A violation.
Art. 2. Stops play:
a. Because of an injury or a loss of a contact lens.
b. To confer with the scorers, timer or shot-clock operator.
c. Because of unusual delay in a dead ball being made live.
d. For any emergency."

For whatever reason the whistle was blown, the timer should have stopped the clock. The IW stops the clock, and except in cases where the ball is in flight on a shot, makes the ball dead.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by MJT

This is about as simple as it gets. For those of you still saying "but he blew his whistle" it doesn't matter cuz the CLOCK NEVER STARTED!!!! Therefore they can fix the timing error using the monitor and it DOESN'T MATTER whether or not he did, or did not blow his whistle.

What is your arguement now????

Whether the clock was actually running or not matters not, the fact is, it SHOULD have been running, and when the whistle blew, the clock SHOULD have stopped. The purpose of the review is to correct the time so that it reflects how the clock would have started and stopped had the mistake not been made.

If the clock had started running correctly, it would have stopped when the official blew his whistle.

[NewNCref]

Section 5. Officials Use of Replay/Television Equipment
Art. 1. Officials may use official courtside replay equipment, videotape
or television monitoring that is located on a designated courtside table
(i.e., within approximately 3 to 12 feet of the playing court), when such
equipment is available only in situations as follows:

f. A determination, based on the judgment of the official, that a timing
mistake has occurred in either starting or stopping the game clock.
After the ball is in play, such a mistake shall be corrected during the
first dead ball or during the next live ball but before the ball is touched
inbounds or out of bounds by a player. When the clock should have
been continuously running, the mistake shall be corrected before the
second live ball is touched inbounds or out of bounds by a player.


The ball became dead on the whistle (IW or OOB, i don't care why he blew it). Therefore, this is when the mistake should have been corrected.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

They do not use the PT system during the tournament.

Is everyone ignoring this comment? They do use the PT system. The C is supposed to start the clock and obviously didn't. Now that brings us back to the question of is this a timing error or an official's error?

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Is everyone ignoring this comment? They do use the PT system. The C is supposed to start the clock and obviously didn't. Now that brings us back to the question of is this a timing error or an official's error?

They do not use PT. They stopped a couple years back because every site didn't have PT.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

Okay......

"The game clock and shot clock, if running, shall be stopped...

This is where you're getting tripped up. The clock was never started. Therefore, it couldn't have been stopped. By a whistle, or by anything else. You need to forget about the whistle.

[NewNCref]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

This is where you're getting tripped up. The clock was never started. Therefore, it couldn't have been stopped. By a whistle, or by anything else.

Does it not matter that it SHOULD have been running. I don't see how the result of the play if the timing is done correctly and the result of the play if the timing is done incorrectly can be different. I mean, it just doesn't seem correct.

If timing was done correctly, clock starts on tip and ends on whistle.

If timing is done incorrectly, and then corrected, then clock starts on tip and ends only once it's actually OOB (ignoring the whistle by the official)?

It just doesn't seem quite right.

[ATXCoach]

Originally Posted by DC_Ref12

This is where you're getting tripped up. The clock was never started. Therefore, it couldn't have been stopped. By a whistle, or by anything else. You need to forget about the whistle.

I admit that I know a fraction of the rule book, but I just can't "forget about the whistle." It seems so illogical to me that the mechanism used to stop the clock in almost every other situation on the basketball court should be ignored due to the official timer's error.

It seems that more people are in agreement with this interpretation, but it just "seems" wrong to me.

Thanks all

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by ATXCoach

I admit that I know a fraction of the rule book, but I just can't "forget about the whistle." It seems so illogical to me that the mechanism used to stop the clock in almost every other situation on the basketball court should be ignored due to the official timer's error.

It seems that more people are in agreement with this interpretation, but it just "seems" wrong to me.

Thanks all

Again, you have to forget about the whistle, because whether or not it was blown is irrelevant since its function in that play was to stop the clock.

But, the clock never started in that play, so the blowing of the whistle becomes irrelevant.

Thus, the officials had to judge when the ball was dead by judging when it went out of bounds, not when the whistle was blown.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

What whistle?

The whistle that was clearly heard, coupled with the Trail's signal that it was A&M's ball. Given that as a fact, please discuss how changing the time based on ignoring these facts was correct. Why the stonewalling?

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by NewNCref

If timing was done correctly, clock starts on tip and ends on whistle.

Timing wasn't done correctly, so you'd be better to strike this sentence from your brain. It's just causing confusion.

Focus on this sentence:

If timing is done incorrectly, and then corrected, then clock starts on tip and ends only once it's actually OOB (ignoring the whistle by the official)?

You have now answered your own question.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by jkjenning

The whistle that was clearly heard, coupled with the Trail's signal that it was A&M's ball. Given that as a fact, please discuss how changing the time based on ignoring these facts was correct. Why the stonewalling?

The whistle DOESN'T EXIST, within the context of the rules.

Ask yourself this question: within the context of that play, what was the function of the whistle?

Answer: To stop the clock.

Caveat: The clock never started.

Result: The whiste was inadvertent, since if the clock did not START, it cannot STOP (by way of the whistle).

[ATXCoach]

DC,

so in my lengthly hypothetical at the top of page 4 - the reviewing officials will/should rule that the game is over? correct?

Thanks