Here is the Tenn/Virginia Play

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by biz

Here's what I'm thinking about doing...Not sure there is any backing in the book and I probably wouldn't have done this but it might spark some discussion.

I think that the grasping of the rim in this case calls for a T, but I would want to hold the whistle to allow the offensive player to complete what looks like it could be an easy basket. The calling official signals a personal foul on Cain on the "block" attempt I would call the personal as well as the T. Since the T happened first Tennesse would shoot two with the lane cleared and then shoot the personals with the lane spaces occupied and the game would continue.

Doesn't this go back to NC's play with the delayed technical? I'd rule differently in this situation, though. If you call a technical for hanging on the rim, then the contact would have to be either nothing or an intentional technical foul for dead ball contact.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Doesn't this go back to NC's play with the delayed technical? I'd rule differently in this situation, though. If you call a technical for hanging on the rim, then the contact would have to be either nothing or an intentional technical foul for dead ball contact.

I haven't seen NC's play. What's the thread title?

If you delay the whistle on the T for grasping the rim then the ball is not dead and you don't have to call the intentional T for dead ball contact.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by biz

I haven't seen NC's play. What's the thread title?

If you delay the whistle on the T for grasping the rim then the ball is not dead and you don't have to call the intentional T for dead ball contact.

"False Double Foul with Held Whistle"
False Double Foul with Held Whistle

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Doesn't this go back to NC's play with the delayed technical? I'd rule differently in this situation, though. If you call a technical for hanging on the rim, then the contact would have to be either nothing or an intentional technical foul for dead ball contact.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

He doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. He knows he is in traffic and has actually had contact. That's all I need to know about grabbing the rim for safety. I'm only coming up with a T if he has several feet around him to the next player (regardless of the direction they're moving) OR if he showboats rather than just grabs.

Did you see the play? I don't want to offend those that think it shouldn't be a T, but come on! If this is the same play I think it is, this is play-calling 101. He was headed in a different direction than the offensive player and not only did he hang on the rim, he used the rim to stop his momentum and keep himself in the play. Again, if this is the play I think it is - if the player doesn't hang on the rim, he flies by and the offensive player shoots an uncontested layup.

I can't look at this play at work - is this the same play I'm thinking of?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by tomegun

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah - not sure what I was thinking. It basically is the same thing, and I would call both the same - personal foul on the player who earned the personal foul and a technical on the guy hanging on the rim. I definately overcomplicated it.

[Old School]

Actually, here's a case where the rulebook could get you in some trouble. Technically, the player should been ejected. If we are going to call it by the letter of the law, we got a technical foul for grabbing the rim, automatic dead ball, then we have another technical foul for contact on a dead ball after the fact. Or you can say, the player held on or used the rim as an advantage to play defense. That's two technicals, players ejected.

I guess you could reason that contact after the ball is dead is to be ignored unless it's flagrant or intentional. Another example of why you have the referee's judgment to go along with the rule. The correct call is one technical and the ball is dead. New 35 second shot clock after the 2 free throws.

BTW, what was the call here?

[deecee]

old I think you and nevada can start a school for the overjudicious. but at least for once your not entirely talking out of the wrong hole.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

old I think you and nevada can start a school for the overjudicious. but at least for once your not entirely talking out of the wrong hole.

Unfortunately, your knowledge of the rules matches Old School's.You're both wrong.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Actually, here's a case where the rulebook could get you in some trouble. Technically, the player should been ejected. If we are going to call it by the letter of the law, we got a technical foul for grabbing the rim, automatic dead ball, then we have another technical foul for contact on a dead ball after the fact. Or you can say, the player held on or used the rim as an advantage to play defense. That's two technicals, players ejected.

I guess you could reason that contact after the ball is dead is to be ignored unless it's flagrant or intentional. Another example of why you have the referee's judgment to go along with the rule. The correct call is one technical and the ball is dead. New 35 second shot clock after the 2 free throws.

BTW, what was the call here?

No, this is a case where knowing the rulebook lets you call the play correctly.

What makes you think that the ball is automatically dead on the technical foul? The rules say different. A foul committed by the defense while a player is in the act of shooting does NOT make the ball dead. If the shooter has started the trying motion, the ball remains live until the try is over, even if the ball was still in the shooter's hands when the "T" occurred. The subsequent foul on the shooter is just a normal personal foul. It's a contact foul during a live ball, and the contact does not have to be intentional or flagrant.

It's NFHS rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c) for anybody that actually owns a rule book. The NCAA rule is exactly the same.

Basic rule. Once agin, ignore any and all raving by the Master of Obfuscation. He knows not what he speaks!

Edited to add the appropriate NCAA cite-- NCAA rule 6-6-2--"A live ball shall not become dead when a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who starts a try for goal before a foul occurs, provided that time does not expire before the ball is in flight."

[deecee]

i just said he wasnt entirely talking out of his *** -- he wouldnt T up a coach who questioned his integrity but here he will t up a kid and maybe even eject him. cant figure out if Ol wants to effect the game or not. he comes at us with so many vaild and pertinent points.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

he comes at us with so many vaild and pertinent points.

Two of a kind......

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Old School

Actually, here's a case where the rulebook could get you in some trouble. Technically, the player should been ejected. If we are going to call it by the letter of the law, we got a technical foul for grabbing the rim,

In NCAA, grabbing the rim is an indirect technical, not a direct technical, so the player wouldn't have been ejected for two technicals (even if that had happened).

It also needs to be in "an excessive, emphatic manner".

And, according to my 2006 book (what I have handy) it's not a T to plave the hand on teh rim to gain an advantage -- only to place the hand on the backboard.

I didn't see the play, so I have no comment on what should have been called.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, according to my 2006 book (what I have handy) it's not a T to plave the hand on teh rim to gain an advantage -- only to place the hand on the backboard.

Very true, Bob. I noticed the same thing a couple of hours ago, while doing some additional research on this play.

The NFHS has 10-3-5:
"A player shall not:
. . . Illegally contact the backboard/ring by:
a. Placing a hand on the backboard or ring to gain an advantage."

However, the NCAA rule does not mention the ring. It only says backboard.

10-3-16 "Placing a hand(s) on the backboard to gain an advantage."

The rules that cover the ring say nothing about doing so to gain an advantage.

10-3-13"Grasping either basket in an excessive, emphatic manner during the

officials’ jurisdiction when the player is not, in the judgment of an official,

trying to prevent an obvious injury to himself, herself or others."


10-3-15 "Intentionally slapping or striking the backboard or causing either the backboard or ring to vibrate while the ball is in flight during a try, or while the ball is touching the backboard, is on the basket ring, in the basket net or the cylinder."

My interpretation of this play is that the player was okay initially because I deemed him to be grasping the ring to prevent an injury, but once that dangerous situation passed, he was now grasping the ring not to prevent an injury, but in order to aide his making a defensive play. Thus it is a matter of the timing. I believe that 10-3-13 needs to be applied twice during this play. The first time seems to be legal, but the second time that the player's actions are judged, they are worthy of a technical foul.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Did you see the play? I don't want to offend those that think it shouldn't be a T, but come on! If this is the same play I think it is, this is play-calling 101. He was headed in a different direction than the offensive player and not only did he hang on the rim, he used the rim to stop his momentum and keep himself in the play. Again, if this is the play I think it is - if the player doesn't hang on the rim, he flies by and the offensive player shoots an uncontested layup.

I can't look at this play at work - is this the same play I'm thinking of?

It's the same play Tom. While it may be debatable whether his initial grasp of the rim could be legal/illegal, there is no doubt in my mind that the subsequent swinging on the rim was illegal and not necessary for his safety. He jumped straight up off 2 feet. It's not like a player who's on a fast break and jumps off 1 foot and his momentum causes him to swing on the rim to keep from falling.