My Old High School

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

My question: Since the scorers and the timer at the table are considered part of our officiating crew, could I have gone to them for help on this call at the end of the first quarter to correct the call ?

My belief is that, yes, you could have used the help of your table crew, but one has to be careful when doing this that the table crew is trustworthy.

Next time you would probably be better served to trust your table to handle the clock and you continue to observe the shot.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My belief is that, yes, you could have used the help of your table crew, but one has to be careful when doing this that the table crew is trustworthy.

Next time you would probably be better served to trust your table to handle the clock and you continue to observe the shot.

2 questions:

1. Based on what can the table help make *this* call?

2. First you advise we need to be careful about the honesty of the table crew then you advise we need to trust them. How can this be?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

2 questions:

1. Based on what can the table help make *this* call?

2. First you advise we need to be careful about the honesty of the table crew then you advise we need to trust them. How can this be?

1. Dan, this is a gray area. I wouldn't ever ask the table if a player traveled, however, there is a casebook play which allows the referee to consult the table to determine if a try was in flight or a foul occurred before an unheard horn. (2.13)
Plus have you ever heard of an official asking the table for help on which player committed a foul when the number is forgotten by the officials?
How much you involve the table with calls on the court is very sensitive. I'd like to keep it to a minimum, but I would also like to do all that I can to get the play right for the coaches and kids. Whether the ball hit a pole or struck a wire is a factual issue to me, just as whether a try was released before or after a horn. This is not the same as a judgment call on whether or not a foul occurred.
If you deem that this is a call that an official on the court must make or it simply gets missed, then I can see the validity in that as well.

2. Would you be happier if I had instead written "to rely upon your table to do their job and handle the clock"? I think your second criticism is purely about diction.

[TriggerMN]

Why is that team shooting a double bonus when there are only 6 team fouls recorded on the board? Why didn't the trail close down on the 2nd free throw attempt? He is actually backing up! I will cut a lot more slack to officials if they are hustling. These two guys were just plain lazy.

[Nevadaref]

Despite the fact that we know that the wrong decision was made on the last shot, I can't find a great deal of fault with the Trail official. (The LEAD is a whole different matter!)

I can cut him some slack because in a two-person crew, the Trail must be behind the play as the ball is being brought up the court and since the offensive is pushing it up fast due to there being only a few seconds left he doesn't have time to get a good angle on the ball hitting the pole above the backboard. He would need to be more in front of the team bench to have a quality look at that. Could he have continued his run and gotten down there? Maybe, but would most people? Probably not.

Instead he is almost straight on and probably can't tell if the ball is going straight up or hit the pole and came back a bit. Plus the gym wall behind the backboard is painted white and so it the pole. This lack of contrast doesn't help the official.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Despite the fact that we know that the wrong decision was made on the last shot, I can't find a great deal of fault with the Trail official. (The LEAD is a whole different matter!)

I can cut him some slack because in a two-person crew, the Trail must be behind the play as the ball is being brought up the court and since the offensive is pushing it up fast due to there being only a few seconds left he doesn't have time to get a good angle on the ball hitting the pole above the backboard. He would need to be more in front of the team bench to have a quality look at that. Could he have continued his run and gotten down there? Maybe, but would most people? Probably not.

Instead he is almost straight on and probably can't tell if the ball is going straight up or hit the pole and came back a bit. Plus the gym wall behind the backboard is painted white and so it the pole. This lack of contrast doesn't help the official.

I'm going to disagree here. The Lead should not be looking up at the shot. The shot from that area is the T's responsibility and in 2 man, the rim is always the T's responsibility.

[Adam]

Junker, I think he's faulting the lead for two things. First, for looking up. Second, for not going to get this call if he was looking up.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Junker

I'm going to disagree here. The Lead should not be looking up at the shot. The shot from that area is the T's responsibility and in 2 man, the rim is always the T's responsibility.

That does not preclude the Lead from seeing or knowing the ball hit a support. I know I sometimes take a peek at this when the ball bounces high off the rim. Now that does not mean I would see it for sure, but I do take a peek when possible. Also I would not get on the Lead as if they should be watching this. This was a play better for 3 officials.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by TriggerMN

Why is that team shooting a double bonus when there are only 6 team fouls recorded on the board?

That is an excellent observation. The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup. Perhaps that scoreboard doesn't go any higher than six or perhaps they blew that too.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That is an excellent observation. The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup. Perhaps that scoreboard doesn't go any higher than six or perhaps they blew that too.

Say what?

The scoreboard isn't official. The scorebook is. It doesn't matter a lick what the scoreboard says about the number of fouls. All that counts is what is entered in the official scorebook. NFHS rule 2-11-11.

[jkjenning]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The scoreboard does show six team fouls for each team at the end of the game (4:10) on the video closeup.

At the start of the video "Vikings" have 11 team fouls, "Visitor" has 6.
Then around the 1:30 mark (immediately after the officials were buzzed) the scoreboard shows 6 each... I'd say the clockkeeper had issues.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. Dan, this is a gray area. I wouldn't ever ask the table if a player traveled, however, there is a casebook play which allows the referee to consult the table to determine if a try was in flight or a foul occurred before an unheard horn. (2.13)
Plus have you ever heard of an official asking the table for help on which player committed a foul when the number is forgotten by the officials?
How much you involve the table with calls on the court is very sensitive. I'd like to keep it to a minimum, but I would also like to do all that I can to get the play right for the coaches and kids. Whether the ball hit a pole or struck a wire is a factual issue to me, just as whether a try was released before or after a horn. This is not the same as a judgment call on whether or not a foul occurred.
If you deem that this is a call that an official on the court must make or it simply gets missed, then I can see the validity in that as well.

2. Would you be happier if I had instead written "to rely upon your table to do their job and handle the clock"? I think your second criticism is purely about diction.

1. OK, so you're saying this is what *you* would do but it is not backed up by the rules. I can live with that. And I'll remember it the next time you condemn an official for not doing it entirely by the book.

2. No, just my subtle way of saying you can't have it both ways.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

1. OK, so you're saying this is what *you* would do but it is not backed up by the rules. I can live with that. And I'll remember it the next time you condemn an official for not doing it entirely by the book.

I think that 2-3 would provide rules support.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My belief is that, yes, you could have used the help of your table crew, but one has to be careful when doing this that the table crew is trustworthy.

Next time you would probably be better served to trust your table to handle the clock and you continue to observe the shot.

Are you saying "YES" he could've asked the table crew if there was a "VIOLATION" on the floor? Please tell me that's not what you're saying yes to.