Should a state association accomodate a religious school for the playoffs?

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sure you can because Oct 31 = Dec 25

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Ummm, no it doesn't.

Uhmmm yes it does. Go find a calculator.

It's junior high calculator humor.

We're all going to '7734'

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

http://www.oregonlive.com/sports/ore...510.xml&coll=7

We have a pending case in Michigan that is very similar. We have a Jewish school that wants the MHSAA to reschedule any post-season contests it would play in if they happen from Sunday Friday to Sundown Saturday. The MHSAA said no and when the school tried to alter its membership resolution the following year, the school sued the MHSAA and got an injunction allowing them to stay a member until a decision is made.

Personally, I feel that if a school wants to put its relgious values as a priority above everything else, fine, but don't expect the public to feel obliged to go along with it.

Also, we have a college in theassociation I work with that is 7 Day Adventist. They do not play form Sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday either. What they have done the past two years at our volleyball tournament is play through Friday afternoon, and then let the other team they play advance in their place, regardless the score. They have asked for consideration in moving the tournament from Thursday-Saturday to Wednesday-Friday, but the majority of schools don't want to miss an additional day of class time, so the status quo remains.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by eyezen

Uhmmm yes it does. Go find a calculator.

It's junior high calculator humor.

We're all going to '7734'

Actually, it's to do with bases:

31 in Octal (base 8 number scheme) is the same number as 25 in Decimal (base 10 number scheme). So 25 Dec. = 31 Oct.

[Jimgolf]

This article doesn't quote the law that is being interpreted, so it's hard to predict which way the court will rule.

The law prohibits religious discrimination in education. The question is whether not accomodating a religious school amounts to discrimination. It appears that the answer is no, but that a reasonable attempt must be made to accomodate them. Making accomodations for other reasons, but not for religious reasons, clearly seems to be discriminatory.

It appears to me that the court will rule that the association must make an attempt to accomodate and not dismiss the accomodation out of hand. This still leaves the final decision to the association but doesn't leave the religious schools totally in the lurch.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Sure you can because Oct 31 = Dec 25

Let's keep the rest of the religious stuff off the board, lest this turn into a discussion similar to those surrounding race. Suffice it to say that, for whatever reason, BYU (and other institutions / states, etc.) chooses not to play on Sundays.

Why the double standard bob? Discussions about religion are allowed, but not race? What gives?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

Why the double standard bob? Discussions about religion are allowed, but not race? What gives?

Stop with the race crap, for God's sake!!! Would you? What is your obsession with discussion of race? Just stop it.

It's NOT a double standard. Bob asked me to stop talking about religion, which I did, because it falls into the same category as most of racial debates. They're off-topic and can quickly degenerate.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

None of thes have to degenerate if people would just act civilly.

[umpire99]

There is only one thing in the article I couldn't believe:

Charles Hinkle, arguing the case on behalf of the students and the American Civil Liberties Union, told the justices that it is the OSAA's obligation to meet the religious needs of students.

The ACLU is defending religion? I never thought I would see this day.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

None of thes have to degenerate if people would just act civilly.

Agreed. But, the chances of that happening are roughly the same as Jon Diebler, Elvis and Yeti being the officials on the NCAA championship game.

And, no, I don't happen to know the race of two of the three.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes

None of thes have to degenerate if people would just act civilly.

Yabut. If a frog had wings.... Pick your cliche. That's why we don't generally talk about race, religion, or politics here. If you want to have a serious discussion about race issues in America, good for you. I'm all for it. This just isn't the place for it.

[Mark Padgett]

I didn't post this to get into a discussion on the relative merits of religion. I posted it because it is a relevant issue concerning HS basketball in my state and I wanted to see if other states had this issue and if so, how they handle it. Also, I thought we could discuss this from a referee's perspective - strictly as to how it pertains to scheduling, etc.

[dan74]

I believe the thrust is whether it's reasonable. Is rescheduling the game an undue hardship (for the scheduler, host school, teams, fans, etc.) Is this cost prohibitive? Would this result in a team possibly having to play two days in a row, whereas their competition would possibly have a day in between games and more time to prepare (giving them an advantage)? How difficult is it to switch the game day and possibly time (opening/closing the facility; site management; table crew; officials, concessions, etc).

Living up in the north country myself, I've seen various tourney games this year rescheduled because of ice/snow...my guess is the court will take a look at those types of situations and ask why they can do it for snow but not for religious affiliation.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dan74

Living up in the north country myself, I've seen various tourney games this year rescheduled because of ice/snow...my guess is the court will take a look at those types of situations and ask why they can do it for snow but not for religious affiliation.

Snow: Safety; affects everyone.

My take is that the religious schools know in advance that they won't play on certain days, that the state schedules on those days, and that joining the state association is a voluntary activity.

As long as the state is following the by-laws, then they're protected. The religious schools can work to change the by-laws, or form their own association, ...

[dan74]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Snow: Safety; affects everyone.

My take is that the religious schools know in advance that they won't play on certain days, that the state schedules on those days, and that joining the state association is a voluntary activity.

As long as the state is following the by-laws, then they're protected. The religious schools can work to change the by-laws, or form their own association, ...

Bob, good points...my guess is the court will also look at the school voluntarily joining the state association. Another consideration may be whether the association has the flexibility to not schedule any tourney games on a certain day each week (between the last day of the regular season to the state finals). Can (should) the season be shortened by a day or days to allow the association to not schedlule tourney games on a certain day each week?

Personally, I think it'll likely be concluded as too overly burdensome to accommodate the request, giving the time constraints of when the tourney must be played, potential advantage/disadvantage of the change, and difficulty of rescheduling at the last minute.

[bgtg19]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

What the school is asking for here is not a reasonable accommodation. In BYU's case, the only time it becomes even remotely problematic is for the NCAA basketball tournament. Further, BYU wants Sunday's off. If they wanted Saturday's off and made the final four, I can assure you the NCAA wouldn't be accommodating.

Aggie, you mention that in BYU's case, the only time it becomes even remotely problematic is for the NCAA basketball tournament. That's also true for Portland Adventist Academy. The only time it becomes problematic is during the playoffs.

Also, if some school in the NCAA tourney wanted Saturdays completely "off," that might be problematic for the semifinals, but if BYU or a Seventh-day Adventist university wanted its beliefs (no playing sundown Friday to sundown Saturday) to be accommodated, what would be the big deal about making sure the requesting school played the second game Saturday night (beginning well after sundown)?

I'm inclined to agree with the kind of sentiment expressed by Jimgolf. Promising that a state/tournament will change for a school "no matter what" seems unreasonable, but requiring the state/tournament to consider ways to accommodate the schools in ways that are reasonable makes a lot of sense. The NCAA is making a good faith effort to enable BYU to participate; why can't the OHSAA make a good faith effort to enable Portland Adventist Academy to participate?

I know that in Maine, the Maine Principals Association has accommodated a Seventh-day Adventist school during tournament scheduling. There's no controversy there, that I'm aware of.

Anyway, as the whole issue pertains to us officials, our scheduling issues should not influence this at all. We just serve the game. If they schedule a game when one of us cannot do it, some other official will serve that game.