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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2001, 11:27pm
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A1 is dribbling up the court, he stops straddling the centre line. He then bounce passes the ball to A2, who is also straddling the centre line. On the pass, the ball bounces in the front court. Legal play? Or should over and back be called when A2 touches the ball?
NCAA Men rule interpretation on this play.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 18, 2001, 11:37pm
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The ball hits the floor in the FC, so it now has FC status. A1 was the last player to touch the ball before it went into the BC and A2 was the first player to touch the ball in the BC. BC violation.
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Old Sun Nov 18, 2001, 11:38pm
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On first glance, I would probably blow this play dead on the "it looks funny" rule.

However, when you review this for the four elements of BC violation:

(1) Team A has control - yes
(2) Ball has FC status - once it touches the floor in FC, it is FC, so yes
(3) Team A is last to touch in FC - no. Team A never touched the ball in the FC
(4) Team A is the first to touch in BC - yes.

Remember, if any one of these is not present, there cannot be a BC violation. Therefore, this (at least, to me, this late at night) is a legal play.
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Old Sun Nov 18, 2001, 11:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
On first glance, I would probably blow this play dead on the "it looks funny" rule.

However, when you review this for the four elements of BC violation:

(1) Team A has control - yes
(2) Ball has FC status - once it touches the floor in FC, it is FC, so yes
(3) Team A is last to touch in FC - no. Team A never touched the ball in the FC
(4) Team A is the first to touch in BC - yes.

Remember, if any one of these is not present, there cannot be a BC violation. Therefore, this (at least, to me, this late at night) is a legal play.
Your #3 is incorrect. The question is not "Team A is last to touch in FC?" The question is "Team A is the last to touch the ball before it goes into the BC?" Touching the ball in the FC is not a requirement.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 07:56am
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
On first glance, I would probably blow this play dead on the "it looks funny" rule.

However, when you review this for the four elements of BC violation:

(1) Team A has control - yes
(2) Ball has FC status - once it touches the floor in FC, it is FC, so yes
(3) Team A is last to touch in FC - no. Team A never touched the ball in the FC
(4) Team A is the first to touch in BC - yes.

Remember, if any one of these is not present, there cannot be a BC violation. Therefore, this (at least, to me, this late at night) is a legal play.
Your #3 is incorrect. The question is not "Team A is last to touch in FC?" The question is "Team A is the last to touch the ball before it goes into the BC?" Touching the ball in the FC is not a requirement.
Yup. Same result as if the pass bounced off a ref standing in the front court and bounced back to backcourt.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 11:27am
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Rule 9-9-1


A player of the team in control shall not:

Be the first to touch a ball after it has been in frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touch by the ball in frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

What player from team A in frontcourt touched the ball?

I submit that since both players were in the backcourt and no player from team A "touched or was touch by the ball" while in front court we have nothing.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Pilo
Rule 9-9-1
A player of the team in control shall not:

Be the first to touch a ball after it has been in frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touch by the ball in frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.

What player from team A in frontcourt touched the ball?

I submit that since both players were in the backcourt and no player from team A "touched or was touch by the ball" while in front court we have nothing.
Your submission is incorrect.

A does not have to touch the ball while in the FC. When the ball hit the floor in the FC, it gained FC status. The case play below:

4.4.4.
Play:
The official is in Team A's frontcourt when he/she is contacted by a pass thrown by A1 from Team A's backcourt. After touching the official, the ball: (a) goes out of bounds; or (b) rebounds to the backcourt where it is recovered by A2.

Ruling: Touching the official is the same as touching the floor where the official is standing. In (a), the ball is awarded to B for a throw-in. In (b), the ball has been in the frontcourt and then has gone to the backcourt while in Team A's control. It is a violation for A1 to cause the ball to go from A's backcourt to frontcourt and return to backcourt untouched if A1 or a teammate is first to touch it after it has returned to backcourt. (9-9 Note)
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 12:59pm
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Unhappy

I guess what you are saying is that when player A2 touches the ball while it still had frontcourt status doing this while standing in the backcourt causes the violation

So these two things happened simultaniously?

Okay
I guess I can live with that.

Is there anyone out there that agrees with my first assesement?
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 01:10pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Pilo
I guess what you are saying is that when player A2 touches the ball while it still had frontcourt status doing this while standing in the backcourt causes the violation

So these two things happened simultaniously?

Okay
I guess I can live with that.

Is there anyone out there that agrees with my first assesement?
Ron,
When A2 touched the ball, the location/status of the ball immediately (not simultaneously) became backcourt.
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Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 01:19pm
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I went back and re-read the rules, and now I see that this is a backcourt violation.

In NFHS, the note in 9-9 applies to this situation.

NCAA rules simply state that the ball must come from the frontcourt when there is team control - not that there must be team control in said frontcourt.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Pilo
I guess what you are saying is that when player A2 touches the ball while it still had frontcourt status doing this while standing in the backcourt causes the violation

So these two things happened simultaniously?
A1 is in the BC.

He passes the ball where it touches the floor in the FC.

The ball now has FC status.

A2 then touches the ball while he is in the BC.

Tweet!
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 02:53pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ron Pilo
I guess what you are saying is that when player A2 touches the ball while it still had frontcourt status doing this while standing in the backcourt causes the violation

So these two things happened simultaniously?

Okay
I guess I can live with that.

Is there anyone out there that agrees with my first assesement?
No. And not this one either.

New case: A1 and A2 straddling line as above. A1 passes to A1 with the ball bouncing in the frontcourt and bouncing a second time in the backcourt before it reaches A2. (Yes, it could easily happen). What do we have....violation.

1. A has team control.

2. Ball gained FC status.

2. A2 was the first to touch the ball that had backcourt status.

3. A1 was the last to touch the ball when it last had frontcourt status.
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 19, 2001, 03:02pm
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Thumbs down Tweet!

Same case book ruling (4.4.4) that BktBallRef quoted above.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 20, 2001, 12:12am
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Ed Biliks Answer

----------
From: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 23:31:49 EST
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: FW: Interpretation- NCAA- Men

Answer 1- During a throw-in, there is no team control. Consequently, a pass
thrown into the back court from out of bounds is not a violation.
When the ball is thrown into the back court, a team has 10 seconds to advance
the ball over the division line. When the ball is thrown into the front court
and there is team control, the division line comes into play.

Answer 2. No. A player is permitted to be the first to secure control of the
ball after a throw-in while both feet are off the playing court and may land
with one or both feet in the back court.

Answer 3. No There was never team control in the front court. A ball that is
in contact with a player or with the playing court, shall be in the back
court when either the player or the ball is touching the back court.

Ed Bilik
Secretary/Editor Men's NCAA Basketball Rules Committee

Hi Everyone
What do you think now,???This is a question I submitted the other day To Ed Bilik. See my previous post on this subject.
Pistol
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 20, 2001, 01:21am
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I'm afraid Ed is incorrect for #3, at least from an NF standpoint. I can't imagine why the NCAA would be any different. The case book play that I quoted earlier is no different than the play that you describe or the play that was in this orignal post. Why not email him with the case book play without the ruling and see what he says?
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