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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 01:36am
KDM KDM is offline
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Okay, I lied about the Super Bowl Tickets ... but the following is a situation that has occurred in our state and I'm curious to know how you and your association would handle the situation! I kinda brought this up in response to another 'post', but I wanted to get a variety of intrepretations.

You have been assigned two high school games on the same night. At half-time of the 1st game, before the officials leave the court area, both teams of the 2nd game enter the court with full warm-ups to begin their pre-game activities by doing a shoot-around. Both teams have gotten permission from home management to do so, but were also instructed to exit the court when the teams of the 1st game returned from the half-time break.

The players from team B begin dunking the ball and hanging on the rim. Eight dunks are recognized by the officials as they decide to stay on the floor because of 'poor' dressing facilities.

You have three questions and must tell why!
1. How are you going to start the 2nd game and what rule or lack or rule will you refer to?
2. What particular rule or lack of rule are you going to refer to when one of the kids files a lawsuit against you because he permanently disfigured a finger while dunking the ball?
3. You are not scheduled to work the 2nd game since it is a tournament and a separate group of officials will work game 2. What will you instruct them to do?

Please don't answer on IMPULSE ... put some thought into it. I'll respond in a couple of days to tell you what our group did and why!!

KDM
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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 01:36am
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First off, 'Joe Bob' read all the rules in rule 2, section 2, once the officials are on the floor and for as long as they are on the floor, they have jurisdiction.

Ok KDM, per your questions, first of all as an official myself and the majority of our board we wouldn't let others shoot and or practice during this period which is not part of their game.
If you do however let them practice, and you also decide to stay on the floor as you stated, then all rules apply. Since when officials are on the floor they have jurisdiction, since these players that are practicing, are doing so 'prior' to their game, technicals should be applied for the dunking or hanging infractions per person.
Hopefully no one should ever have eight infractions of this before the start of a game, since you be starting with a lot of shots and minus a coach or two.
If you were not to be the officials for the second game, I would tell the following officials of the incidents and would assume that they would follow through with the apropriate actions.

As per the rules used as a guide line refer to all of rule 2, section 2. And also to rule 10, section 3, art. 5...

As for a player getting hurt and sueing you? Our board carries liability insurance for such instances, I would assume that most boards do the same. As an official on the floor part of our duties are that of the saftey of the players. If a player is hurt because of our negligence on the floor we are liable.

My own persoanal belief and recommendation to others is to not allow any non players of that game to be on the floor during the time period for that particular game. Even though the game administration has given them permission, the officials have jurisdiction over all, as long as they are on the floor.
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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 04:18am
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You have three questions and must tell why!
1. How are you going to start the 2nd game and what rule or lack or rule will you refer to?
Rule 2, Sec 2 is specific in defining the officials jurisdiction. At least 15 minutes prior to the start of the game and after the final score has been approved and you have left the visual confines of the playing area (2,5.7) Therefore you have no jurisdiction of the next game. Because this is a tournament, the next teams are not covered under Rule 2, Sec 8.1, which may let you enforce an unsportsmanlike conduct due to this definition of player, coach, substitute, team attendant or follower.
You are however; allowed to control action during the intermission of your game. Rules do not specifically cover action such as this type of activity during the intermission but, Rule2, Sec 3 gives the referee authority to make decisions not specifically covered in the rules. This would allow the referee to disallow any activity that may seen hazardous to any player, future player, spectator, cheerleader, etc...

2. What particular rule or lack of rule are you going to refer to when one of the kids files a lawsuit against you because he permanently disfigured a finger while dunking the ball?
I would personally not allow this type of activity during the intermission for 2 reasons: #1- These players may damage the backboard or ring if excessively dunking the basketball, or collapse a portable backstop. Good game administration should not allow over zealous activity that may result in damage or injury. #2- The possibility of injury is quantified by the inherent risk invloved with dunking/grabbing the rim. Just inside the front cover of all NFHS publications in a bordered statement that justifies the rules we govern.
"These rules are intended to promote and preserve the sound traditions of the sport and the safety of participants. However, there is an inherent risk of major or minor injury from participation. Every individual using these rules is responsible for prudent judgement with respect to each contest, athlete and facility and each athlete is responsible for exercising caution and good sportsmanship."
The preamble, so to speak, gives the officials the authority to stop this type of activity before someone gets hurt. Simply put, if you allow this to go on, you are liable for any injury that may occur, as is game administration, as would the player if he chose to circumvent the decision made by the officials.

3. You are not scheduled to work the 2nd game since it is a tournament and a separate group of officials will work game 2. What will you instruct them to do?
I would advise them of my reasons for not allowing this type of activity to occur and to caution them to not allow it to take place either. I have not been able to find a specific rule to cover this type of behavior and certainly would not penalize a team for the actions of non-supporters. But I would expect game management to take care of this 'unsportsmanship' behavior, Rule 2.8.1, due to this activity of a spectator(s). While the authority is there to penalize via technical fouls (Rule 10-1-8) should game administration refuse to correct the problem, the best solution would be to suspend play until proper announcements were made to rectify the problem. This information would then be echoed to the officials scheduled for the next game, for their information, should it be allowed to happen again..

WHEW...!!!

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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 04:35pm
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quote:
Originally posted by barney on 01-25-2000 12:36 PM
If you do however let them practice, and you also decide to stay on the floor as you stated, then all rules apply. Since when officials are on the floor they have jurisdiction, since these players that are practicing, are doing so 'prior' to their game, technicals should be applied for the dunking or hanging infractions per person.



Hmm ... let's change the scenario slightly. You are officiating the varsity game, when the freshman team comes out at half time and dunks. You will officiate the frosh game tomorrow night. Do you call the Ts? After all, the players were dunking "prior" to their game and while you had jurisdiction.

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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 07:03pm
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'Bob', simply put, I wouldn't let the players on the floor if it's not their game !
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Old Tue Jan 25, 2000, 09:53pm
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** Barney: There was no confusion on my part for the officials jurisdiction or rule 2, section 2 and I agree wholeheartedly..
This isn't a question your game authority, it's a question of authority for the next game, which will not be officiated by the same 2 officials. You must command authority in your particular game and if you call these 8 tecnicals during your game, how will you enforce it for the next game in which you have no authotiry..?? Your authority lies in player safety and for this reason only, I would not allow dunking as described in the original post..

First off, 'Joe Bob' read all the rules in rule 2, section 2, once the officials are on the floor and for as long as they are on the floor, they have jurisdiction.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2000, 01:41am
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First off at halftime get the hell out of the gym. This way you don't see the activities, and if someone gets hurt, it is on the game managenment, and not you as a ref. As far as how will we start the second game, unless you have a T after the 15 min. mark, then we start with a jumpball.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2000, 10:21am
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Dennis, the 15 minute mark has nothing to do with it. If you are on the floor, you are in jurisdiction, period.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2000, 09:46pm
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What I mean by the 15 min mark, is there is no jurisdiction over the people on the floor. They are not properly attired for the game, and there is no book for them to be in. Like I said on my first point, GET THE HECK out of the gym during halftime so that you don't see this.
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Old Wed Jan 26, 2000, 10:02pm
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Are most of you guys from out West? Sounds like you do things a bit differently than here in the mid-west. What's the big deal? Out here, it is very common for players to come out on the floor and shoot around during half-time of the JV game. If they're dunking, just tell them not to dunk. Otherwise, they're not hurting anyone and the game manager can deal with them. Do your thing in the locker room, and when you come out have the players leave if they haven't already. You got a game in progress to be thinking about, without worrying about who's on the court during half-time. And you SURE don't want to be assessing technicals for the NEXT game. "Out of sight, out of mind."
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Old Thu Jan 27, 2000, 01:11am
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Why would you even WANT to shoot "a lot of free throws" to start the next game (as in, why even consider it)?! No harm was done, and nothing illegal about it. In the Rules book, Section 8, Article 1 says that the home management is responsible for the behavior of spectators, and that the game officials "may call fouls on either team if its supporters act in such a way as to interfere with the proper conduct of the game." Since the players shooting around, suited up or not, are spectators until the current game is finished and are not interfering with the game at hand, the game management is in charge of them and the refs should relax and concentrate on their game in progress.

I think there is some "overinterpreting" of when the officials' jurisdiction begins. The rule book is talking about arriving on the floor before the scheduled game, and that arrival time should be "at least 15 minutes before the scheduled starting time." Yes, "at least" means it could be before that, but it's talking about 15 to 30 minutes or so, not half-way into the prior game. If you feel the need, just tell game management to be sure the kids on the floor at half time are not dunking, so as to protect the equipment and not result in a delay of the current game if something breaks, then relax for 7 minutes before returning for the second half.
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Old Thu Jan 27, 2000, 01:24am
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Whoa!

I admire your association's 'balls' in deciding to handle the situation in the way you stated. However, officials jurisdiction only applie to player involved in the game in which they are assigned to offiate, not the following one or like Ron P. said, tomorrow's J.V. game.

If the players did not stop dunking or would not leave the floor then that is the time to write a note to your commissioner/scheduler, however your association does it.

As to the liability issue, once you have told the players to leave the floor you have discharged your responsibility. I would find game management and tell them to handle the job of removing the players.

I would tell the officials for the game following what transpired just to let them know that players were dunking since it could happen prior to 'their' game, but would not suggest any penalties.

Let's not get too deep in over our heads in administrating NFHS rules. When we become 'literalistic' rather than 'realistic' we get in trouble!

And this was a good discussion.
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Old Thu Jan 27, 2000, 11:16am
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Okay,
You see a set of twins on the court dunking the ball during half time of your game. Only one of them is dunking the ball.

When you go to the floor to watch pregame warmups you notice only one of them is on the floor in uniform.

HMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!
So you gonna Start a game with a T against a player that didn't do anything...............
Let it go or get them off the floor.

I say that as an official we have no juristiction for the second game until we walk on to the court to watch pregame......... for THAT game........

Different game start all over............

------------------
Ron
Seattle Officials - Women's Basketball


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Old Thu Jan 27, 2000, 11:40am
KDM KDM is offline
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Some interesting replies to say the least. I find it informative to see the different perspectives and 'how' officials can reach their conclusion. As promised, here is how we handle the situation and why.

1. Start the 2nd game with lots of free throws. The officials have jurisdiction (as they are scheduled for games 1 and 2) and the 'shoot-around' is considered part of the team's pre-game warm-ups. There are NO time restraints for the warm-ups. It would be treated the same as if, for discussion purposes, the officials entered the court 25 minutes prior to the scheduled starting time and witnessed the infractions. Should the officials be in the dressing room, they must return to the floor upon receiving knowledge that the players are 'warming-up'. Should the officials see the players entering the court prior to the officials leaving the court for halftime, the officials must stay on the court.

2. If you stay on the court, and penalize the illegal activity, the pending lawsuit doesn't carry any weight. Anything else, increases your liability for the injury.

3. Since your jurisdiction ends after game 1, you cannot penalize a team in the 2nd game. Even if the officials of the 2nd game are in the stands at halftime of game 1, and witness the 'dunking', they can not penalize since they have not entered the court and taken jurisdiction. Fortunately, in our area during tournaments, teams that are not currently playing are not allowed on the floor. Yet, during the regular season, we have seen it from time to time.

Let me reinterate, this is how we handle the situation. Your association or state office may handle it differently.

KDM

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