Clock Didn't Start

[bwbuddy]

HS boys game, 7.7 seconds left until half time. Ball is thrown it, clock guy forgets to start clock, several seconds go by before refs notice. What should the refs do at that point?

[Jurassic Referee]

Blow the whistle. Whichever team had the ball gets a throw-in at the POI when the whistle was blown. Put time back on the clock if you have definite knowledge of how much time should have run off the clock--i.e. an official's count of some kind. If you don't have definite knowledge of how much time should have ran off, you leave the clock alone. Smack the timer upside the head to wake him up.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Put time back on the clock if you have definite knowledge of how much time should have run off the clock

If you have definite knowledge of how much time should have run OFF the clock, then why are you putting time back ON the clock?

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

HS boys game, 7.7 seconds left until half time. Ball is thrown it, clock guy forgets to start clock, several seconds go by before refs notice. What should the refs do at that point?

If I or my partners have direct knowledge of how much time went off, then I'm resetting the clock. Usually if someone has a count on, either closely guarded or 10-second count I go by that. End of the half, I'm resetting it. End of the game, I'm conferencing my partners and ensuring the clock starts and/or somebody has a count if it doesn't.

[ronny mulkey]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

HS boys game, 7.7 seconds left until half time. Ball is thrown it, clock guy forgets to start clock, several seconds go by before refs notice. What should the refs do at that point?

If there is no real threat to the basket, then kill the play immediately. But, I hope that I have the discipline to make sure that a scoring play is not in progress before I blow my whistle. That is hard to do. If you have a scoring play in progress start a count of some kind until that play is over.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by bwbuddy

HS boys game, 7.7 seconds left until half time. Ball is thrown it, clock guy forgets to start clock, several seconds go by before refs notice. What should the refs do at that point?

There is no excuse for 1 of 3 people not seeing the clock start properly. As soon as the ball is touched inbounds, 1 and if not all 3 should check to make sure it started. When it didn't, I kill it immediately and put 7.7 back on the clock and do it again, unless the play has an immediate and I mean immediate scoring possibility.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

When it didn't, I kill it immediately and put 7.7 back on the clock and do it again,

What rule basis would you use to do this?

[bronco]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

What rule basis would you use to do this?

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock. I have a lot less problem with that than with the statement that all "1 if not all 3 should check to make sure it started." I don't think all the refs should be focused on the clock, there is enough to watch on the court.

[Bad Zebra]

This is a game management issue, especially if you know you have students working the table. I like to pre-game the topic by just saying "let's make a habit of glancing at the clock during the start and end of dead balls if we can." If you have a $hit storm taking place under the basket, then obviously you can't, but I think it's a good practice to try to get into.

[DC_Ref12]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I like to pre-game the topic by just saying "let's make a habit of glancing at the clock during the start and end of dead balls if we can."

It just amazes me that this has to be done. I mean, it's like your partner coming over in the middle of a game and saying "You know, it would be nice if you could, like, watch the game from time to time and occasionally blow your whistle if you see a foul."

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bronco

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock.

Why? Any time that ran off was legit. Remember, the clock didn't start on time. You don't add time back on because too little ran off....that's going the wrong direction.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bronco

If the clock isn't running, the ref kills it immediately and puts the previous known time on the clock.

That's the part I was respondiing towards - essentially allowing a "do-over". As we have dicussed many times before, "do-overs" are not allowed under NFHS rules, or also NCAA-W. Iow, in the OP's scenario, the ball is being dribbled up the court, and the officials notice that the clock has not started, so they blow the whistle and stop play. If the officials had definite knowledge of the amount of time that should've been taken off, (say, for example, a backcourt count), they can take that amount of time off the clock and resume play where the ball was when the whistle blew. If, by some chance they do not have definite knowledge of the amount of time, the only thing that is allowed is to put the ball back in play where it was when the whistle blew, and leave the clock alone. You cannot allow a "do-over", where you start all over again from the original spot. Yes, it sounds like the fair thing to do, but it is not what the rules state.

That is why the officials need to be aware of the clock during those end-of-quarter and end-of-game situations. It may not seem fair, since that is what the table is being paid to do. But that is what separates the "good" officials, the ones that know how to call fouls and travels, from the "great" officials, the ones that get those difficult situations correct when it counts. It may only happen once or twice a season, but you need to be ready when it happens.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

That's the part I was respondiing towards - essentially allowing a "do-over". As we have dicussed many times before, "do-overs" are not allowed under NFHS rules, or also NCAA-W. Iow, in the OP's scenario, the ball is being dribbled up the court, and the officials notice that the clock has not started, so they blow the whistle and stop play. If the officials had definite knowledge of the amount of time that should've been taken off, (say, for example, a backcourt count), they can take that amount of time off the clock and resume play where the ball was when the whistle blew. If, by some chance they do not have definite knowledge of the amount of time, the only thing that is allowed is to put the ball back in play where it was when the whistle blew, and leave the clock alone. You cannot allow a "do-over", where you start all over again from the original spot. Yes, it sounds like the fair thing to do, but it is not what the rules state.

That is why the officials need to be aware of the clock during those end-of-quarter and end-of-game situations. It may not seem fair, since that is what the table is being paid to do. But that is what separates the "good" officials, the ones that know how to call fouls and travels, from the "great" officials, the ones that get those difficult situations correct when it counts. It may only happen once or twice a season, but you need to be ready when it happens.

So if you are saying we have to give the ball to them at the spot we blew the whistle, then if all home teams were down and the clock keeper knew this was the case, then we could end up seeing clock keeping "homers" not starting the clock on purpose and then we end up giving that team the ball back in the front court, with only a couple of seconds wasted, when in fact it was a couple more seconds than that. I know there is not that many unhonest scorekeepers out there (at least I hope not), but just trying to make a point. I know my way might not be the right way either, but I just want to do whats closest to being fair for both teams, and giving the offensive team the ball another 28 ft. or so up the court with little to no time off the clock does not seem fair. I'm open to other ideas.

And how do we have definite knowledge with a count? The only thing that keeps proper time is the clock (when its running). I would have just as good a shot at guessing how much time came off the clock and getting it correct, in contrast to counting, because everyones count is usually slower than the real time that elapses. Yes it would be close but it would not be definite. Would it?

Just my take.