The Right Call?

[rpd709]

Hello,

I've been doing Elementary Basketball 5th - 6th graders for the last 2 years but tonight it started getting out of hand with one particular player. I ended up giving her 2 techincal fouls on two different scenarios at which I will explain below.

Please advise if you feel I made the right call on these scenarios:

Scenario #1 - First Quarter

A Team dribbling the ball down the court goes to the right baseline where B team player goes for the ball ( not a reach in ) and gets into a jump ball situtation... The whistle was blown and then they end up getting on the ground and B team player still trying to rip the ball from A Team whistle continously being blown. B Team Player releases and then slaps the girl in the face while releasing of the ball. Automatic Technical Foul given with 2 Free Throw Shots and the ball back

( Agree ) ???

Scenario #2 - Third Quarter

A Team dribbling the ball down the court B Team same player then grabs for the ball no contact made and gets into a jump ball call again. Whistle is blown and she continously is pulling to get the ball from the player and then when she finally lets go she moves her body with her elbow going towards the player ( elbow made no contact ) she then turns towards A Team face and gives that ( I'm ready to fight you look ) I give her the next technical.

Once again 2 shots for A team and ball back.

Agree?

Given these are 5th and 6th graders but still don't need that attitude and they have been told when that whistle blows game play stops and all that.

Gosh did I hear it from the parents tonight when I made those 2 technicals LOL

Your opinion.

[BoomerSooner]

I know this is just 5/6th grade girls, but IMO a slap to the face is going to be a flagrant any day of the week. Since the ball was dead on the held ball, we are going flagrant tech on the girl and letting her coach know that she is not going to be playing anymore tonight. BTW, had it been a live ball flagrant foul and she still wouldn't be playing. Nonetheless, A is shooting 2 FT's and will take the ball at the division line in this case.

Had I for some reason allowed the girl to keep playing, the second situation could amount to a form of taunting or instigating a fight and would warrant a technical foul. This one doesn't seem as flagrant as the previous situation, but if you consider it an act of fighting or even as I said attempting to instigate a fight then flagrant in this situation as well.

[rpd709]

I went with the Technical foul on the player as she did apologize to the player after she did it and I warned her not to let it happen on the floor again tonight.

I do feel the 2nd scenario was showing a sign of fighting she turned around to the front of the other girl and gave that ( I'm going to kick your *** look ) although no fight was brought out and the elbow that was going everywhere didn't establish contact with the other girl but I felt that the game was getting out of control because of her and it was deemed that the ejection technical was warranted to get control again.

[Nevadaref]

Both of your decisions sound fine to me.

[Scrapper1]

I agree with Boomer. First one is flagrant. So there would be no second one. But since you judged it not to be flagrant, then the second one was also merited.

[Ignats75]

Flagrant the slap. If a dead ball slap isn't flagrant, why even have it in the rule book?

I would have tossed her at the slap. I don't care if she apologized or not. That girl definitely has some issues and if she doesn't learn from it now, it'll only lead to problems later on, as witnessed by the second T.
Obviously though, you do what you feel needs to be done to control the game.

Gosh did I hear it from the parents tonight when I made those 2 technicals LOL

In what way? Positive or negative? I know of a girl on one of our teams who has some anger issues, and a lot of the parents of her teammates would like to see her get whacked for some of her "attitude".

[Big2Cat]

If the slap was intentional, apology or not, it is flagrant and she should have been ejected. This is the time to teach.

[Ignats75]

Funny you should post that PYRef. I had forgotten this. My first year, I was doing a Girls JV game. Right before the half, A1 and B1 (A is Home team) dive for a loose ball along the sideline. As they were sliding out of bounds A1 throws a punch at B1, who pulls her head back so that it misses, but hits the back of her head on the bleachers. I Tossed A1 for a flagrant foul (the only one I ever issued).

During the Varsity game, I happened to be standing on the baseline next to the admissions table that was manned by two Mom's. I observed to them that I felt bad because I had to toss the girl. (Remember, I was a new official ) Both Mom's quickly said, no-no she has had that coming all year. That she has anger issues. Lesson: Don't try to be nice. Just do what you are supposed to do.

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Lesson: Don't try to be nice. Just do what you are supposed to do.

Exactly.
I nominate Ignats for "Quote of the Day"

[deecee]

make sure when you eject you blow your whistle profusely and go with the ol heave-ho signal. then dance in her face cuz she just got tossed...
but honestly from the sound of what you said that first one should have been it for her.

[TimTaylor]

You were there and we weren't so I defer to your judgement and have no problem with the way you handled it, but I do agree with others that from your description it sounds like the 1st T should have been flagrant.

[Mark Padgett]

Take it from someone who has worked, literally, over 1000 rec games, you should have tossed her for the slap. No exceptions. In our rec league, she also would automatically miss her next game.

[rpd709]

If I would have known the 2nd incident would have happened she would have been gone for the first one....

BTW, The responses I got from the parents wasn't good in the least.

I got 3 things said to me: Eat **** and Die, You Suck, and Go To Hell.

I could just tell the environment in the court was pissed off at me but I acted professional and kept my head in the 2nd game of the night and didn't really care what anyone had to say.

I spoke with the coach after the game and she agreed with me and that she has been rough all year and maybe this will teach her to quit being so rough. I told her that I have to protect the other players and she would want the same protection as if she was the victim rather than the suspect. She agreed wholeheartedly and commended my efforts to control the game.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by rpd709

If I would have known the 2nd incident would have happened she would have been gone for the first one....

BTW, The responses I got from the parents wasn't good in the least.

I got 3 things said to me: Eat **** and Die, You Suck, and Go To Hell.

Perhaps it's time to quit reffing in the California Penal League.

Originally Posted by rpd709

I spoke with the coach after the game and she agreed with me and that she has been rough all year and maybe this will teach her to quit being so rough. I told her that I have to protect the other players and she would want the same protection as if she was the victim rather than the suspect. She agreed wholeheartedly and commended my efforts to control the game.

I don't know that I would have stuck around to talk to a coach in the intense enviroment you described. I also know for a fact that I wouldn't have let that girl stay in the game after the first blatantly flagrant act.