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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:14pm
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Referee with "rabbit ears"

During a recent run of middle school games, you know 7th grade G/B and the 8th grade G/B where one set of officials handle all four games, it became apparent that one of them had a bad set of what I call "rabbit ears".

In fact, during the last game (8th grade boys), he directly responded to a member of the crowd. He had made a call on a play that looked to be on the floor and when awarded 2 shots to A1, a crowd member simply yelled "he wasn't shooting" as he gave the ball to A1 for his shots. The ref then yelled back as A1 prepared to shoot, "yes, he was". Would you agree that is something that should not happen?

Later, B1 shot from the left baseline area and missed with the ball coming off to the right block area where B2 rebounded and, with one step, took the ball directly back up for a put back. The ref blows his whistle and B's fans think great, shooting foul. However, the ref then calls out "3 SECONDS" to which B2 reacts by throwing his arms out and down (the classic "WHAT") and the ref T's him. When the coach asks, "why the T?" the ref says B2 was "showing him up". The assistant coach then asks, "what was the call again?" and the ref repeats, "3 seconds" to which asst coach says "the count restarts on the rebound" and the refs responds "I know the rule!". The asst coach says "obviously not" and gets T'd. The ref repeats, after the T, "I know the rule" and the asst coach persists with "then you're a moron" and is T'd again and tossed. The asst coach then calmly starts to leave the gym (the door is on the opposite end from his bench) and the ref then starts to follow the coach.

It seems to me that most of the refs behavior was, at best excessive, and at worst downright wrong, except for the T on the "you're a moron" comment. What is the forum's opinion, as I would like to write a letter discouraging the local schools from using this particular referee for any more games?
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:22pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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(no sarcasm or condesencion intended).

I'm not saying the ref was right or wrong. Just wondering why you think the school will heed your advice not to hire the ref for more games.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
(no sarcasm or condesencion intended).

I'm not saying the ref was right or wrong. Just wondering why you think the school will heed your advice not to hire the ref for more games.
I think what BadNewsRef is getting at (and something I'm curious about to) is what your connection to this game was (though I could be wrong). For example, if you're the AD at the school, then they certainly might listen to you. If you're just a spectator, then you probably won't have much luck.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:28pm
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I would think that if enough people complained about his conduct that it would get a athletic director's attention. Just because someone may not be affliated with the school doesn't mean that their opinion should be ignored. I'm not complaining that he cost either team the game, but I really think his conduct was inapropriate.

And, by the way, I have been a referee in the past, just not now as I have school age kids and want to spend my time watching them play ball.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:32pm
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Asking us to judge the actions of a referee at a game where we were not at is not going to get you very many valid responses. We only have one side of the story.

Also be advised that on the lower level games you will have newer refs. Becoming a good ref usually takes years of experience and years of experience does not necessarily translate into a good ref.

If you have a rules question, then ask it. If you want to whine about a ref, do it someplace else. This is not the forum to whine.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:39pm
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Yeah, it sounds like the guy wasn't the strongest on the rules or professionalism. Maybe he was new, maybe there's a reason he's working middle school games. Maybe he was cranky because he was helping out with the games because no one else could make it. But, the kid shouldn't have thrown his hands up, that's a good T. The assistant coach shouldn't be involved in the converstation, that is also a good T. I certainly agree that the official made some questionable calls from your description, but coaches and players need to learn to overcome that.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
I would think that if enough people complained about his conduct that it would get a athletic director's attention. Just because someone may not be affliated with the school doesn't mean that their opinion should be ignored. I'm not complaining that he cost either team the game, but I really think his conduct was inapropriate.

And, by the way, I have been a referee in the past, just not now as I have school age kids and want to spend my time watching them play ball.
Contact the referees assoc. you belong to and report the official. While your at it, don't forget to contact the school and report the coach. No official will be perfect, and a misapplication of the rule doesn't justifies the coaches actions. The coach was a bad example and should get the same treatment as the official.

If you don't report both, you are no better than either of them, imo.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:40pm
In Memoriam
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
During a recent run of middle school games, you know 7th grade G/B and the 8th grade G/B where one set of officials handle all four games, it became apparent that one of them had a bad set of what I call "rabbit ears".

In fact, during the last game (8th grade boys), he directly responded to a member of the crowd. He had made a call on a play that looked to be on the floor and when awarded 2 shots to A1, a crowd member simply yelled "he wasn't shooting" as he gave the ball to A1 for his shots. The ref then yelled back as A1 prepared to shoot, "yes, he was". Would you agree that is something that should not happen?

Later, B1 shot from the left baseline area and missed with the ball coming off to the right block area where B2 rebounded and, with one step, took the ball directly back up for a put back. The ref blows his whistle and B's fans think great, shooting foul. However, the ref then calls out "3 SECONDS" to which B2 reacts by throwing his arms out and down (the classic "WHAT") and the ref T's him. When the coach asks, "why the T?" the ref says B2 was "showing him up". The assistant coach then asks, "what was the call again?" and the ref repeats, "3 seconds" to which asst coach says "the count restarts on the rebound" and the refs responds "I know the rule!". The asst coach says "obviously not" and gets T'd. The ref repeats, after the T, "I know the rule" and the asst coach persists with "then you're a moron" and is T'd again and tossed. The asst coach then calmly starts to leave the gym (the door is on the opposite end from his bench) and the ref then starts to follow the coach.

It seems to me that most of the refs behavior was, at best excessive, and at worst downright wrong, except for the T on the "you're a moron" comment. What is the forum's opinion, as I would like to write a letter discouraging the local schools from using this particular referee for any more games?
My opinion is you're a typical fanboy. Why don't you go watch your kids play and just enjoy the game? And if you want to complain about inappropriate behavior, write a letter to the local schools about the
assistant middle school coach who calls officials "morons".

You're crapping on an official for responding to unsporting behavior and ignoring completely the people who committed the unsporting acts in the first place. Think about it.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:41pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Asking us to judge the actions of a referee at a game where we were not at is not going to get you very many valid responses. We only have one side of the story.

Also be advised that on the lower level games you will have newer refs. Becoming a good ref usually takes years of experience and years of experience does not necessarily translate into a good ref.

If you have a rules question, then ask it. If you want to whine about a ref, do it someplace else. This is not the forum to whine.
Well said by the way. I doubt if any action will take place at the middle school level. In most areas they are just glad to have someone willing to be on the floor.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
If you have a rules question, then ask it. If you want to whine about a ref, do it someplace else. This is not the forum to whine.
Why are we so quick to jump on new posters in the forum lately? I'm truly baffled.

As JRut has very correctly pointed out in another recent thread, there's a whole lot more to officiating than the rules. If (and that's a big if, since we only have one side of the story) this official behaved the way it is described, what should be done about it? That's a legitimate question. There's no reason to lash out at this person.

My own suggestion would be to contact the official's association (since you may have past relationships there), rather than the schools themselves. Or if you feel really strongly, I guess you could do both. But by contacting the association, you might get the official some training. Maybe. Maybe not.

Realistically, your complaint will have no effect. As some others have indicated, your comments will probably not influence the AD and the official himself will probably dismiss you as a know-nothing. Additionally, the official's assignor may already know about his problems, but uses him anyway just because he needs to bodies out on the floor to cover games.

Your best bet is to simply forget it as a bad experience, and take comfort in the fact that the official will never get to a varsity game without some additional improvement.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:49pm
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
Asking us to judge the actions of a referee at a game where we were not at is not going to get you very many valid responses. We only have one side of the story.

Also be advised that on the lower level games you will have newer refs. Becoming a good ref usually takes years of experience and years of experience does not necessarily translate into a good ref.

If you have a rules question, then ask it. If you want to whine about a ref, do it someplace else. This is not the forum to whine.
Thought I gave the whole story, not just one side. I didn't have anything vested in the outcome, just watching a ballgame.

The question really was if an experienced referee agreed that it was inappropriate for a referee of any level to "talk back" or argue with the crowd and if it was equally inappropriate to pursue a coach that is properly leaving the gym after being tossed.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:50pm
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Unhappy

No - the official should not have verbally sparred with a fan.
No - the kid should not have gestured as he did.
No - the assistant coach should not have been speaking to official.
No - the head coach should not allowed the assistant to speak with the asst.
No - the fan should not have been abrasive or unsporting in any way either.

Seems to me like everyone played a part. Sometimes we all do/say things we later regret. Doesn't mean we don't deserve a second chance! If there is a pattern - perhaps there is a real problem. However, that should be up to the AD's or assignors who set the schedule, and to veteran officials observing games. If you were a fan - stay out of it.
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Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:52pm
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Philosophically, I have a real problem with anyone that was in the crowd having any input into the rating or disciplining an official. Thats a mighty big Camel with a mighty big nose, to let into our tent. Its way worse than the coaches who vote for referees for tourney games.

I gotta agree with my dinosaur friend. You are coming across as a typical fan who has an axe to grind just because you didn't like the outcome of a game. Unfair? Maybe. But allowing fans to have some sort of authority over officials is scary. If you think referees are substandard, grab a whistle and improve the referee pool in your area. OTherwise, sit down, watch the game and STFU!

Uh-OH. F U February may have just kicked in for me.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 03:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkmz17
Thought I gave the whole story, not just one side. I didn't have anything vested in the outcome, just watching a ballgame.

The question really was if an experienced referee agreed that it was inappropriate for a referee of any level to "talk back" or argue with the crowd and if it was equally inappropriate to pursue a coach that is properly leaving the gym after being tossed.
I would say in most cases an official does not benefit in any way by talking to the crowd. But there are exceptions to anything. Part of this would depend on your stature as an official and knowing your environment and many factors that will never be discussed here. But as a general rule, an official should just leave the fans alone because you will not come out looking good.

Peace
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 08, 2007, 04:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
My opinion is you're a typical fanboy. Why don't you go watch your kids play and just enjoy the game? And if you want to complain about inappropriate behavior, write a letter to the local schools about the
assistant middle school coach who calls officials "morons".

You're crapping on an official for responding to unsporting behavior and ignoring completely the people who committed the unsporting acts in the first place. Think about it.
I thought I said that the asst coach was properly T'd and I would agree that it was inappropriate for him to call the ref a "moron" However, in response to your "typical fanboy" comment, I could enjoy the game alot more without refs that think that once they put on a striped shirt, everything that they do is above reproach. Just because I am a fan doesn't mean I don't know the rules or can't have an reasoned opinion on what proper behavior for a ref, for a coach or for a fan should entail.
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