2 strange questions...

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by kbilla

and you better believe that if a coach is enough to let his kid wear one during warmups, he would argue like hell if you told the kid to take it off...

I have on more than one occasion, either told a kid to take something off, and the coach usually says "thank you, I told him, but he wouldn't listen to me." Or on other occasions mentioned something to a coach, and heard "will you tell him, he won't listen to me" So I am not thinking that a coach is going to be concerned if we enforce these rules...now the rules where fouls are called on both teams, the other team and the coaches team, now those rules are always open for debate LOL

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I think that you should learn the rules and how to apply them. It's kinda obvious that you don't know what the applicable rules are or how they should be applied.

The FED has laid out in detail exactly how they want these situations handled. There is NO guesswork or judgement involved. You do NOT ask a player to take off jewelry. You tell them that they have to leave the court immediately until they do take off the jewelry. If they choose to wear jewelry, that is their right. But they have to do so on the bench, not on the court. If the player wants to argue or doesn't want to leave, that's when you can get into technical fouls if needed. Usually a word to the coach is all that it takes. I have never seen or heard of a player refusing to leave the court when asked to get rid of his jewelry.

personally i think anyone who comes on a message board and says something like that thinks a little too highly of themselves. i understand the rule. if you are saying there is no judgement to be used in this case i say you are mistaken, but i won't say you "need to read the rules" because i am here for discussion not to pass judgement on others...and i have worked with some high level HS officials who have handled this situation the same way...do what you want, but take the self importance somewhere else...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Kbilla, read case play 3.5SitA. It deliberately says "It will be noted that the listing of equipment which is always illegal is not inclusive. It cannot identify every item which is not permitted. The generalization is required since the referee's judgement is necessary." There isn't anything in the rules about carrying an AK47 onto the court during warmups either. That's why they give you the criteria to follow in that case play-i.e.some of the criteria that I listed already.

and mr. jurassic referree God sir, an AK47 would fall under the "could cause harm to others" provision....i know you have probably witnessed someone strangle another with their i-pod ear buds, but we haven't all seen it all like you have..

[Ignats75]

Sorry kbilla,

I gotta agree with the old dinosaur here. When I come on the floor for pregame warmups, my authority to manage the game is without question. I would no more expect a player to refuse to take off something that I deem illegal than I would expect that same player to ignore me when I call him for his fifth foul and tell him he's done for the night. I will respectfully, and as nicely as possible, tell him to "get off the frickin floor until he's appropriately dressed." OK.

I wouldn't say it like that. But my expectations are the same.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I think that you should learn the rules and how to apply them. It's kinda obvious that you don't know what the applicable rules are or how they should be applied.

The FED has laid out in detail exactly how they want these situations handled. There is NO guesswork or judgement involved. You do NOT ask a player to take off jewelry. You tell them that they have to leave the court immediately until they do take off the jewelry. If they choose to wear jewelry, that is their right. But they have to do so on the bench, not on the court. If the player wants to argue or doesn't want to leave, that's when you can get into technical fouls if needed. Usually a word to the coach is all that it takes. I have never seen or heard of a player refusing to leave the court when asked to get rid of his jewelry.

and just because you have irritated me let's talk a bit about judgement. it clearly states in the rule book that a player may not stay in the lane on offense for more than 3 seconds consecutively with the provision for a player who goes to attempt a shot. what do you do if you have a player with his/her toe on the lane line, are you counting? it is clearly stated in the rulebook that you should, so why wouldn't you? what about a player who has their toe on the free-throw lane marking during the free-throw, are you blowing a violation? there are a ton of things that are "clearly" stated in the rulebook as to how they should be handled, and most of those things have a hell of a lot more to do with the game than what a kid was or wasn't wearing in warmups, so if you want to be the rulebook nazi and chase a kid through the lay-up line to make sure that he has taken off the necklace that he has on under his warmup before the game has started, more power to you....but again, i would never tell an official to "read the rule book", especially one on a message board who i have no idea about what they have/haven't done...

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Sorry kbilla,

I gotta agree with the old dinosaur here. When I come on the floor for pregame warmups, my authority to manage the game is without question. I would no more expect a player to refuse to take off something that I deem illegal than I would expect that same player to ignore me when I call him for his fifth foul and tell him he's done for the night. I will respectfully, and as nicely as possible, tell him to "get off the frickin floor until he's appropriately dressed." OK.

I wouldn't say it like that. But my expectations are the same.

look guys this is silly, i never should have even said anything, this converstaion is a non-starter. i agree with what you are saying and if you want to do that, more power to you, i have no problem with that. but that being said, if my partner told a kid to take something off and then went back about his business of watching pre-game warmups and didn't say another word to the kid if he didn't do it right away, i wouldn't think any differently of him. i certainly wouldn't tell him he needs to read the rule book b/c that player should have taken that off right away! there are more important things...

[Ignats75]

and then went back about his business of watching pre-game warmups and didn't say another word to the kid if he didn't do it right away, i wouldn't think any differently of him.

If my partner is someone I've never worked with before, it might indeed make me wonder. Is this the kind of official that will warn a coach three or four times about violating the coaches box? Is this guy going to keep warning the same player to keep the arm bar down? Is this guy going to keep telling players to get out of the lane and never call 3 seconds?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

personally i think anyone who comes on a message board and says something like that thinks a little too highly of themselves. i understand the rule. if you are saying there is no judgement to be used in this case i say you are mistaken, but i won't say you "need to read the rules" because i am here for discussion not to pass judgement on others...and i have worked with some high level HS officials who have handled this situation the same way...do what you want, but take the self importance somewhere else...

Nope, I said what I said because I don't really think very highly of your rules knowledge. What you posted was completely contadictory to some very basic written NFHS rules. And what you should do with players wearing jewelry during warmups is a basic rule. When anyone posts arguing that you shouldn't follow a very definitive case play, you have to wonder about their rules knowledge. And contrary to your statement above, there is absolutely NO judgement involved either in how to handle a player wearing jewelry during warmups. They immediately remove the jewelry or they immediately go sit on the bench.

If your fellow high level HS officials are following your lead, then your fellow high level HS officials don't know the rules either.

If you don't know the rules, then you do need to read the rules and learn them. It's that simple, and it's got nothing to do with "self importance".

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

If my partner is someone I've never worked with before, it might indeed make me wonder. Is this the kind of official that will warn a coach three or four times about violating the coaches box? Is this guy going to keep warning the same player to keep the arm bar down? Is this guy going to keep telling players to get out of the lane and never call 3 seconds?

good points, i see where you are going....like i said though i have guys who are veteran officials who i have worked with on a regular basis with who would not even think twice about this...my whole point in even bringing this up in the first place was to emphasize that if you do tell them once and then walk away they don't know whether you are still watching them disobey you or whether you told them and that was it you walked away and just expected that they would do as they are told. to me there is a benefit to treating players like "adults" when they reach the varsity level and not dictating to them in situations like this. now i understand that there are going to be a million other times during the game where i will dictate and there will not be a question, but to me it is a matter of picking your battles...and i don't buy the whole "if you give them an inch they'll take a mile" argument in this case...i am not out to start an adversarial relationship with a player before the game starts unless i am forced to....different school of thought that's all....

[BEAREF]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, I said what I said because I don't really think very highly of your rules knowledge. What you posted was completely contadictory to some very basic written NFHS rules. And what you should do with players wearing jewelry during warmups is a basic rule. When anyone posts arguing that you shouldn't follow a very definitive case play, you have to wonder about their rules knowledge. And contrary to your statement above, there is absolutely NO judgement involved either in how to handle a player wearing jewelry during warmups. They immediately remove the jewelry or they immediately go sit on the bench.

If your fellow high level HS officials are following your lead, then your fellow high level HS officials don't know the rules either.

If you don't know the rules, then you do need to read the rules and learn them. It's that simple, and it's got nothing to do with "self importance".

Why do you let them sit on the bench if they have on jewelry? Aren't they still considered players.... and players aren't permitted to wear jewelry...you better get them sent to the locker room until it's removed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BEAREF

Why do you let them sit on the bench if they have on jewelry? Aren't they still considered players....

No, they aren't considered players.

[Ignats75]

I'm not looking for an adversarial relationship either. But the relationship I do have with the players is one of judicial authority. I tell them something. I expect it to be done. I tell my 11 year old son to clean his room, he's going to clean his room. Its not an adversarial relationship. He does what I tell him to do because I expect him to do just that. Well, the same goes for the players. Its not adversarial. Its just that I have an expectation that they will do what I tell them to do. If I get lip, I already have some information about that team.

[kbilla]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Nope, I said what I said because I don't really think very highly of your rules knowledge.

ha ha, now if THAT is not self-importance then i haven't seen it! do i know you? do i care what you think of my rules knowledge? look, all i was attempting to do is bring attention to the fact that if you chase down every little insignificant rule technicality, then you are looking for trouble. that's it. you made this into some kind of judgement on me for some reason...nobody told me that you were the technical review police when i signed up....

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

No, they aren't considered players.

but they are players during warmups?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

....like i said though i have guys who are veteran officials who i have worked with on a regular basis with who would not even think twice about this...my whole point in even bringing this up in the first place was to emphasize that if you do tell them once and then walk away they don't know whether you are still watching them disobey you or whether you told them and that was it you walked away and just expected that they would do as they are told. to me there is a benefit to treating players like "adults" when they reach the varsity level and not dictating to them in situations like this.

You just don't get it, do you? And sadly, it appears that your veteran officials don't get it either.

Where do you officiate, kbilla? Just wondering. I've never heard of any officials group up to now that doesn't enforce jewelry rules by the book in warmups.