2 strange questions...

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by psujaye

okay so no Ipod (and no technical for it) and coach leaving & coming back as described is okay; agreed?

Yes, by virtue of 3.5.B & C in the first situation, and by virtue of common sense in the second situation.

[psujaye]

i'll look up those rules that you mentioned JR. thanks.
I was surprised his coach allowed that...they're like the 3rd ranked team in Phila, you'd think the coach wouldn't stand for that.
then again, he left during the game, so who knows..

thanks everyone!

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious? See case book play 3.5SitC. Been in there for years. If he wants to wear a Mr. T chain, he ain't gonna be doing it on the court during the officials' jurisdiction, if the officials know the rules.

The Ipod is a no-no too. Anything that is a possible danger to others isn't allowed.

Geeze, what next? A kid trying to make a lay-up in warmup while carrying a boombox?

Don't you mean 3.5 SIT B JR?
(We discussed this the other night in our association meeting)

JR...what's your thoughts on making the players tuck in their shirts during warm-ups. I got into a semi-heated discussion with a fellow board member about this. I said we should leave it alone, during warm-ups. (Sometimes we can't even tell because of the untucked warm-up jackets)
He said we should enforce the shirts being tucked in, during warm-ups.

[Eastshire]

What if the coach was the only adult on the bench?

[kbilla]

of course that was an exaggeration, but how would you even know what he had on under his warm-ups? honestly i have never noticed this if it is a rule, i don't have my book in front of me, anything illegal i have seen during warm-ups i have told them to take it off, but i have not checked as they do it, as long as it is done when the game starts i am fine with it....

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

What if the coach was the only adult on the bench?

Depends on the state rule. If it's in a state (such as California) that requires someone that meets their definition of "coach" to be present on the bench etc., etc., then he, techincally, needs to hold it until the end of the game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

JR...what's your thoughts on making the players tuck in their shirts during warm-ups. I got into a semi-heated discussion with a fellow board member about this. I said we should leave it alone, during warm-ups. (Sometimes we can't even tell because of the untucked warm-up jackets)
He said we should enforce the shirts being tucked in, during warm-ups.

Didn't we already have this discussion? Either here or over on the NFHS forum?

Iirc, after a long discussion, the consensus was that there was no consensus. It depended on how you interpreted the rules, and they could be interpreted differently. There were grey areas in the language. Also iirc, I was on the "who gives a sh!t during warm-up" side. Part of the argument also was if you're gonna enforce the shirt-tucked-in during warm-up, you also gotta enforce it during the whole game at all times. And that includes while a team member is sitting on the bench, waiting to sub in, walking off the court at half-time, etc. Personally, I somehow didn't think that was the purpose and intent of the rule.

But also iirc, BktBallRef said that NC had mandated that they enforce that rule during warm-ups.

Sorry that I really can't give you anything definitive, Dude.....

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you serious? See case book play 3.5SitB. Been in there for years. If he wants to wear a Mr. T chain, he ain't gonna be doing it on the court during the officials' jurisdiction, if the officials know the rules.

The Ipod is a no-no too. Anything that is a possible danger to others isn't allowed.

Geeze, what next? A kid trying to make a lay-up in warmup while carrying a boombox?

JR just curious as to the wording of the situation you quote as i don't have my books in front of me...b/c i am guessing it doesn't say "i-pod" anywhere in the nfhs materials yet....is this one where it is left up to judgement as to whether you are forcing him to take it off during warmups or is this cut & dry? i am not talking jewelry, i am talking about his ipod...and have they changed this in college? b/c i know a few years back sean may from UNC listened to his ipod regularly in warmups...and i am not aware of this being a difference between nfhs and ncaa...what i am saying is that if the rule says "anything that is a possible danger to others" means that you rule that an ipod is a danger to others, doesn't mean someone else does....now should he wear it, hell no, but i just want to clarify whether or not it is that cut & dry that he can't....nothing like starting something over nothign before the game even starts...

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by kbilla

JR just curious as to the wording of the situation you quote as i don't have my books in front of me...b/c i am guessing it doesn't say "i-pod" anywhere in the nfhs materials yet....is this one where it is left up to judgement as to whether you are forcing him to take it off during warmups or is this cut & dry? i am not talking jewelry, i am talking about his ipod...and have they changed this in college? b/c i know a few years back sean may from UNC listened to his ipod regularly in warmups...and i am not aware of this being a difference between nfhs and ncaa...what i am saying is that if the rule says "anything that is a possible danger to others" means that you rule that an ipod is a danger to others, doesn't mean someone else does....now should he wear it, hell no, but i just want to clarify whether or not it is that cut & dry that he can't....nothing like starting something over nothign before the game even starts...

Actually, I have to retract what I said to JR about this particular Case play.

I thought we were talking about Mr. T's jewelry..3.5.SitB

JR has the closer Case play, 3.5 SitC ..."not needed to play the game and are not considered to be appropriate."....in regards to i-pods.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Didn't we already have this discussion? Either here or over on the NFHS forum?

Iirc, after a long discussion, the consensus was that there was no consensus. It depended on how you interpreted the rules, and they could be interpreted differently. There were grey areas in the language. Also iirc, I was on the "who gives a sh!t during warm-up" side. Part of the argument also was if you're gonna enforce the shirt-tucked-in during warm-up, you also gotta enforce it during the whole game at all times. And that includes while a team member is sitting on the bench, waiting to sub in, walking off the court at half-time, etc. Personally, I somehow didn't think that was the purpose and intent of the rule.

But also iirc, BktBallRef said that NC had mandated that they enforce that rule during warm-ups.

Sorry that I really can't give you anything definitive, Dude.....

Fair enough, and yes I remember discussing this...just didn't remember the consensus (or lack thereof).

I like your thoughts on the players on the bench, etc....I think that re-enforces the "leave it alone" camp.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

JR just curious as to the wording of the situation you quote as i don't have my books in front of me...b/c i am guessing it doesn't say "i-pod" anywhere in the nfhs materials yet....is this one where it is left up to judgement as to whether you are forcing him to take it off during warmups or is this cut & dry? i am not talking jewelry, i am talking about his ipod...and have they changed this in college? b/c i know a few years back sean may from UNC listened to his ipod regularly in warmups...and i am not aware of this being a difference between nfhs and ncaa...what i am saying is that if the rule says "anything that is a possible danger to others" means that you rule that an ipod is a danger to others, doesn't mean someone else does....now should he wear it, hell no, but i just want to clarify whether or not it is that cut & dry that he can't....nothing like starting something over nothign before the game even starts...

1) Casebook Play 3.5SitB:-- The officials are on the court prior to the game observing the team warm-up. One official notices that a member of team A is wearing a decorative necklace.
RULING: The official should inform the team member to remove the jewelry immdeiately. Upon compliance, the team member may continue to warm up with his or her teammates and may start the game without penalty.

2) Rule 3-5-1-- "The referee shall not permit any team member to wear equipment or apparel which in his/her judgement is dangerous or confusing to other players or is not appropriate.
Excepts from case book play 3.5SitA--
- There are three criteria which determine the legality of of equipment. First, any equipment which, in the judgement of the referee, is dangerous to others".
- "Equipment which could cut or cause an opponent to have an abrasion is also always illegal and therefore is prohibited.
- "The third criterion provides that the equipment used must be appropriate for basketball and not be confusing."

Note that these apply to high school games. What you see in an NCAA game should never be equated to high school rulings. There's just too many differences.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Actually, I have to retract what I said to JR about this particular Case play.

I thought we were talking about Mr. T's jewelry..3.5.SitB

JR has the closer Case play, 3.5 SitC...in regards to ..."not needed to play the game and are not considered to be appropriate" language in that particular ruling.

my point about "mr. t's jewelry" was a bad example, what i was getting at is that most of the time when it comes to that something like that, you are not going to have any idea what they have on under their warmups therefore why worry about it...and there is no "penalty" per se for him having it on, other than telling them to take it off if you see it...earrings sure you would see them, but again if you ask him to take it off and he doesn't do it right away what are you going to do? are you going to stay on him and follow him until he does or are you going to just watch to make sure that he does before the game starts? personally i would do the latter...the ipod is interesting, like i said i am curious as to how this is handled in college..."not considered to be appropriate", how's that for a cop-out...by whose standards? They should address this situation specifically given the popularity...and you better believe that if a coach is enough to let his kid wear one during warmups, he would argue like hell if you told the kid to take it off...not a reason on its own to allow him to wear one, but when it comes to confrontation before the game starts, I would generally like to avoid it unless forced to deal with a situation....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Actually, I have to retract what I said to JR about this particular Case play.

I thought we were talking about Mr. T's jewelry..3.5.SitB

JR has the closer Case play, 3.5 SitC ..."not needed to play the game and are not considered to be appropriate."....in regards to i-pods.

We were. I meant 3.5.SitB about jewelry and put it down wrong. I went back and changed it. I didn't pick up with your point originally re: 3.5SitC, but now that I read it, I agree with you completely that the last sentence is appropriate for the Ipod. Good catch, Dude.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by kbilla

earrings sure you would see them, but again if you ask him to take it off and he doesn't do it right away what are you going to do? are you going to stay on him and follow him until he does or are you going to just watch to make sure that he does before the game starts? ..

You don't ask. You inform player that said items/equipment must be removed before player continues his/her on-court warm-ups.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

You don't ask. You inform player that said items/equipment must be removed before player continues his/her on-court warm-ups.

ok you don't "ask" you "inform". same thing, do you follow him around and make sure he does it and make a mountain out of it before the game starts or do you not bother until game time? i guess all i am saying is i would ask him/tell him/whatever to do it and if he comes out to start the game he can go back to the bench if the jewelry is still on. anybody who wants to do the former is more than welcome, i am not saying i am right, but that is how i would handle it..i think if you try the babysitting approach you are setting yourself up for a loong night...i'd like to think that all kids would listen the first time, but we all know that's not reality...

i am still not convinced with the ipod thing given the verbiage in the book...."not deemed appropriate for basketball" is so open to interpretation...why not specifically ban personal music devices, that would end the question...