Open for comment

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

the only time a charge turns to a block IMO -- is when the defensive players starts to fall way before the contact -- that I deem a block -- and I know by definition a flop is a T in this case but thats a bit harsh and the contact is always the same as a normal block charge call.

Falling away can only lessen the contact, not increase it. If the player had stood his ground, would it be a block? No, then don't call a block if they step/fall away from the contact.

[WhistlesAndStripes]

Originally Posted by deecee

the only time a charge turns to a block IMO -- is when the defensive players starts to fall way before the contact -- that I deem a block -- and I know by definition a flop is a T in this case but thats a bit harsh and the contact is always the same as a normal block charge call.

If a player starts falling backward before the call, I will often call it a block, and then say to the play, "if you want the charge, then you need to stand there and take it."

[81artmonk]

I would agree, and I always coach to plant and stand and take the hit, but unfortunetly most refs I experience won't make the call unless it is an iron clad obvious charge. Like the player has established LGP 3 steps ahead of the other player and he gets run over. That seems to be the only instance I have come across in my experience where a ref calls charging.
The most uncalled violation in my experience is Player A is defending the ball. Player B cuts around Player A, Another Player A2 anticipates this and assumes a LGP on the other side of his partner. Player B comes around the blind side of Player A and runs into Player A2. I see this called blocking all the time. When by definition he had established LGP more than 1 step from a player who was obstructed.

[deecee]

camron i disagree -- the defender is wimping out and putting the offensive player and him at risk for an ugly collision -- the onus on this is the defensive player to take the charge -- the defender falling early IMO he gives up LGP once he starts to do this

[CaliOne]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I would agree, and I always coach to plant and stand and take the hit, but unfortunetly most refs I experience won't make the call unless it is an iron clad obvious charge. Like the player has established LGP 3 steps ahead of the other player and he gets run over. That seems to be the only instance I have come across in my experience where a ref calls charging.
The most uncalled violation in my experience is Player A is defending the ball. Player B cuts around Player A, Another Player A2 anticipates this and assumes a LGP on the other side of his partner. Player B comes around the blind side of Player A and runs into Player A2. I see this called blocking all the time. When by definition he had established LGP more than 1 step from a player who was obstructed.

From that example, player A2 does not need to be a step or more away from B in order to obtain a LGP. A2 just needs to be in front of player B to est. LGP, like any other situation. If A2 gets LGP on B, and B initiates contact, then PC. Where a step must be given, is when an offensive player sets a screen behind a defensive player

[deecee]

also if i am wrong and I usually am -- a player who gets possession of the ball and is airborne must be allowed to land.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

I would agree, and I always coach to plant and stand and take the hit, but unfortunetly most refs I experience won't make the call unless it is an iron clad obvious charge. Like the player has established LGP 3 steps ahead of the other player and he gets run over. That seems to be the only instance I have come across in my experience where a ref calls charging.
The most uncalled violation in my experience is Player A is defending the ball. Player B cuts around Player A, Another Player A2 anticipates this and assumes a LGP on the other side of his partner. Player B comes around the blind side of Player A and runs into Player A2. I see this called blocking all the time. When by definition he had established LGP more than 1 step from a player who was obstructed.

You're going to have to talk to your local rules interpreter to see how he's instructing people to call things in your area. No one on this board have any authority to say what will or won't be called or how in your locale. We only know how we are told to interpret things "around here".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

camron i disagree -- the defender is wimping out and putting the offensive player and him at risk for an ugly collision -- the onus on this is the defensive player to take the charge -- the defender falling early IMO he gives up LGP once he starts to do this

That might be a philosophy, but that does not fit the rule at all. I am not talking about a flop.

Peace

[81artmonk]

About the falling away. some of you said that if the player begins to fall away before contact, you would call that blocking. I am curious how? If he still has both feet planted, has LGP by rule (you guys said it) even if he is moving (ie falling backwards) doesn't that still fall within the rules as long as LGP and feet planted are in effect??

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

About the falling away. some of you said that if the player begins to fall away before contact, you would call that blocking. I am curious how? If he still has both feet planted, has LGP by rule (you guys said it) even if he is moving (ie falling backwards) doesn't that still fall within the rules as long as LGP and feet planted are in effect??

If it looks like a flop, I"ll call it a block, but that doesn't happen very often. More often, the shooter will pull up just short, just as the defender begins to lean back. Then there could be quite a bit of contact, but I"ll call it incidental, and the coach wants it to have been a charge. There's a lot of judgment involved, it's not as simple as just yes-LGP-yes-charge.

[deecee]

^^ what she said

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by 81artmonk

About the falling away. some of you said that if the player begins to fall away before contact, you would call that blocking. I am curious how? If he still has both feet planted, has LGP by rule (you guys said it) even if he is moving (ie falling backwards) doesn't that still fall within the rules as long as LGP and feet planted are in effect??

A flop is when a player purposely throws himself backwards or out of the way to make it look like he or she was run over. If that is what they are doing when people refer to "falling away," then I would agree that this would likely bring block call. I would rather call a block instead of calling an immediate T if we judge a flop to be faking being fouled. The problem is it is hard to tell sometimes so officials tend to pass on these types of plays.

If a player legitimately ran another player over, I will call a PC Foul all day. I tend to call more PC fouls than most people anyway.

Peace

[deecee]

I do too -- call more pc fouls that is

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Falling away can only lessen the contact, not increase it. If the player had stood his ground, would it be a block? No, then don't call a block if they step/fall away from the contact.

Exactly. LGP doesn't turn into a block because a player might try to protect themselves a little from the contact by leaning backwards. It can never be a block if the defender had LGP at the time of contact, and was moving in any direction but towards the offensive player.

Calling a block because a defender falls backwards is just patently ridiculous imo. If you feel like no-calling it because of the lessened contact, fine, That's a judgement call. But don't make up your own rules and call it a block.

[deecee]

where is lgp when a player is half way falling down and then contact occurs? his feet might be planted but a 45degree angle of the body doth not lgp make imo