NCAA Mens Kick Ball Rule Clarification Needed

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Don't be an ***.

It's what I do. :shrug:

Our money system is accurate to 2 digits simply because that's the smallest coin the government mints. The "accuracy" of money is completely arbitrary.

Whatever the reason, arbitrary or not, you said that 14 does not equal 14.0 and I just gave you a concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if it's not convenient.

Getting back to the thread, shot clocks are accurate to units, ie any measurement smaller than that is not valid.

What does that even mean, "not valid"? They don't exist? Or we simply don't care about them? Because I agree that we don't care about them, as I've said. And I think that the rulemakers don't care about them, as I've said. But the shot clock is measuring them, whether they are displayed or not. For that reason, I think the rule should read "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less. . .". As I've said.

Do you think that every measurement is accurate to tenths of units or better?

I don't have any idea whatsoever.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's what I do. :shrug:

Whatever the reason, arbitrary or not, you said that 14 does not equal 14.0 and I just gave you a concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if it's not convenient.

It's not inconvenient. It's improperly using the practices for measuring phyisical things (time and distance) to measure a non-physical thing (ie the value of money). You may as well say 14 seconds is equivalent to 14 dollars. Makes no sense.

What does that even mean, "not valid"? They don't exist? Or we simply don't care about them? Because I agree that we don't care about them, as I've said. And I think that the rulemakers don't care about them, as I've said. But the shot clock is measuring them...

Wrong.

The shot clock is certainly not guaranteed to "measure" anything between 14 and 15. Surely the shot clock exists thru the time between 15 seconds and 14 seconds (as we do) but you have no standing to say the shot clock "measures" that time. And even if it did actually "measure" that time, how do we know what the measurement is? We don't, because 10ths of seconds are not available to us. IOW they are not valid for use in our measurement.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

It's not inconvenient.

I agree.

It's improperly using the practices for measuring phyisical things (time and distance) to measure a non-physical thing (ie the value of money). You may as well say 14 seconds is equivalent to 14 dollars. Makes no sense.

I disagree. Exactly 14 is equivalent to exactly 14.0. 14 dollars is equivalent to 14.0 dollars. Exactly 14 seconds is equivalent to exactly 14.0 seconds. It is the only sensible thing in this thread.

This whole discussion would go away if the rule simply said "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less, reset it to 15".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I agree.


I disagree. Exactly 14 is equivalent to exactly 14.0. 14 dollars is equivalent to 14.0 dollars. Exactly 14 seconds is equivalent to exactly 14.0 seconds. It is the only sensible thing in this thread.

This whole discussion would go away if the rule simply said "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less, reset it to 15".

You have your head so far up your...errr....let's say you have your head so far into the weeds that you're concerned with making cute debating style points instead of hearing my message.

I'll try 1 more time then I'll give up.

The shot clock does not display tenths of seconds and we have no way of knowing how it passes the time from 15 seconds to 14 seconds. And I mean that in a very real sense. For this very reason we have absolutely no standing to come to any conclusion on the measurement of time between 15 and 14. With me so far? Or do you want to stop to question what I mean by "weeds"?

This idea is wrapped up neatly in a measuring technique that uses the concept of significant digits. There are ways to define what the accuracy of a measurement is, one way is to write the number that includes however many decimal places you know to be realiably measured*. When you say 14 you are saying it could be 14.0, 14.1, 14.2....or maybe even 13.9. When you say 14.0 you mean 14.0 - not 14.1 or 13.9. IOW (and I know this is gonna be tough so maybe read it 2 or 3 times...) 14 is NOT equivalent to 14.0.

See? 14 could be 14.1

14.0 could NOT be 14.1.

Since you admit you haven't thought about this since HS and you still to this day have no idea how it works I can understand why you are confused. But (by convention and practice) 14 seconds is not the same as 14.0 seconds.

* Does not have to be decimals - when Micky D says they sold billions and billions, do you think they have the exact number sold down to a single burger?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

you're concerned with making cute debating style points instead of hearing my message.

I admit, I'm trying to stay light-hearted in the face of being called an ***. But I'm not being cute. I honestly don't care what the convention is. Exactly 14 seconds equals exactly 14.0 seconds. That's the bottom line. To deny that is to make mathematics non-sensical. To say that you don't care about extra decimal places is a far cry from saying that extra decimal places don't change the value of a given number. Let's say we time a runner in a sprint and our stopwatch measures to hundredths of a second. We time him at 9.85 seconds. I understand that we don't care about whatever extra thousandths he took to cross the line. But that doesn't mean that 9.85 actually equals the 9.851 that would've been measured on a slightly more accurate stopwatch.

For this very reason we have absolutely no standing to come to any conclusion on the measurement of time between 15 and 14.

Maybe so. But we can come to the conclusion that there are 14 seconds or more remaining.

When you say 14 you are saying it could be 14.0, 14.1, 14.2....or maybe even 13.9.

Jeez, I don't think I'm saying that at all!! When I say "there's 14 on the clock", I'm saying that I see "14" displayed. I'm not making any comment on 14.1 or 14.2 or whatever.

when Micky D says they sold billions and billions, do you think they have the exact number sold down to a single burger?

No. But if they did have it down to a single burger -- say, 324,571,609,212 -- I bet that's the same as 324,571,609,212.0 burgers.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I admit, I'm trying to stay light-hearted in the face of being called an ***. But I'm not being cute. I honestly don't care what the convention is.

Hmmm...that's quite a bit me like saying that you shouldn't be insulted by being called an ***, I don't care what the convention is regarding the language.

Exactly 14 seconds equals exactly 14.0 seconds. That's the bottom line. To deny that is to make mathematics non-sensical.

There's your problem. When we're discussing measurments there is no such thing as EXACTLY 14 seconds. As I noted, 14 seconds might be 14.1 second, or 13.9 seconds. 14.0 seconds, OTOH, cannot be 14.1 seconds. Untill you see this it's useless to continue

To say that you don't care about extra decimal places is a far cry from saying that extra decimal places don't change the value of a given number. Let's say we time a runner in a sprint and our stopwatch measures to hundredths of a second. We time him at 9.85 seconds. I understand that we don't care about whatever extra thousandths he took to cross the line. But that doesn't mean that 9.85 actually equals the 9.851 that would've been measured on a slightly more accurate stopwatch.

gack.

Now listen closely...I'm gonna try and remain as calm as is humanly possible...

BUT WE F'ING DON'T HAVE A MORE ACCURATE F'ING STOPWATCH!!!!!!

OK, I feel better now....

Maybe so. But we can come to the conclusion that there are 14 seconds or more remaining.

Really? And how do you know there are not 13.9 seconds remaining? Certanly 13.9 is much closer to 14 than 14.5 is.

Jeez, I don't think I'm saying that at all!! When I say "there's 14 on the clock", I'm saying that I see "14" displayed. I'm not making any comment on 14.1 or 14.2 or whatever.

Yes you are. Remember this gem?

So what happens if the kicked ball occurs with more than 14.0 seconds but less than 15.0 seconds remaining? Do we reset or not?

And finally, and I do mean finally...

No. But if they did have it down to a single burger -- say, 324,571,609,212 -- I bet that's the same as 324,571,609,212.0 burgers.

You can bet as much as you like accurate to thousanths of cents but you would be wrong. Simply beacuse the zero in the decimal point of your second number means there's a possibility that tenths of a burger were sold but we don't know what that fraction is in your first number.

They MIGHT be the same. OTOH they might NOT be the same. Not enough information in the first number to conclude.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

When we're discussing measurments there is no such thing as EXACTLY 14 seconds.

Well, you said you were done and that's just as well; because we're clearly talking at cross-purposes. There clearly is such a thing as exactly 14 seconds. There are very precise definitions of what a second is. You add the caveat, "when we're discussing measurements". And that must make a difference, but for the life of me I don't see what it is.

There is obviously time that passes between the point at which a clock shows 15 and the point at which the clock subsequently shows 14. This is undeniable, regardless of how many significant digits you want to include. The kicked ball rule doesn't tell us what to do during that time. This is also undeniable. The rule would be clearer if it read, "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less. . ." This is the one and only point that I really wanted to make in this whole thread.

So I'll be done now, too. (That's "too" with three significant letters. )