NCAA Mens Kick Ball Rule Clarification Needed

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The rule states 14 seconds and 15 seconds as the boundary for the kick rule. It does not state 14.0 seconds or 15.0 seconds.

Unless my education was extremely lacking, 14 = 14.0 and 15 = 15.0. So stating 14 is equivalent to stating 14.0. No?

All we care is whether it says 14 (set it to 15) or 15 (do nothing).

Once again, I agree. But that's not what the rule says.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Unless my education was extremely lacking, 14 = 14.0 and 15 = 15.0. So stating 14 is equivalent to stating 14.0. No?

No.

Google "significant digits" (you should have learned this in HS science class btw...). But the short answer is 14.0 states we care about tenths (seconds, meters, whatever) because we are able to know the value of the tenths. 14 states we are not able to know the value of the tenths so we go out of our way to ignore them.

So the way the rules under discussion are worded we are not to consider 10ths at all.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

No.

So you're telling me that $14 is different from $14.00? If the pricetag says "$14" and you give the checkout girl $14.00, you expect to get change?

Google "significant digits" (you should have learned this in HS science class btw...).

I did, but I readily admit that I'd forgotten all about significant digits. But from what I read on Google, and what I remember from HS science class, the significant digits to the right of the decimal point -- which are not followed by non-zero digits -- do not change the value of the number.

I understand your point, but I doubt the rulemakers were considering significant digits when they re-wrote the rule this year. I think what they meant was if the shot clock "displays" 14 seconds or less, reset it. But I disagree with you if you want to say that's what the rule actually says now.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

So you're telling me that $14 is different from $14.00? If the pricetag says "$14" and you give the checkout girl $14.00, you expect to get change?

Don't be an ***. Our money system is accurate to 2 digits simply because that's the smallest coin the government mints. The "accuracy" of money is completely arbitrary. If the government wanted to mint coins that are worth tenths of cents (kinda small, maybe put your picture on it?) then it would be accurate to that value. Of course electronic trading can give change of very small values...but again it's irrelevant because money is not something we measure in a physical sense. As time is.

Getting back to the thread, shot clocks are accurate to units, ie any measurement smaller than that is not valid. That is a consequence of the fact that 10ths are not available to us and we cannot know where between the integer values the timing device is.

As for where the significant digits occur - if this concept was limited to decimals only it would be called significant decimals, not significant digits.

Do you think that every measurement is accurate to tenths of units or better?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Don't be an ***.

It's what I do. :shrug:

Our money system is accurate to 2 digits simply because that's the smallest coin the government mints. The "accuracy" of money is completely arbitrary.

Whatever the reason, arbitrary or not, you said that 14 does not equal 14.0 and I just gave you a concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if it's not convenient.

Getting back to the thread, shot clocks are accurate to units, ie any measurement smaller than that is not valid.

What does that even mean, "not valid"? They don't exist? Or we simply don't care about them? Because I agree that we don't care about them, as I've said. And I think that the rulemakers don't care about them, as I've said. But the shot clock is measuring them, whether they are displayed or not. For that reason, I think the rule should read "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less. . .". As I've said.

Do you think that every measurement is accurate to tenths of units or better?

I don't have any idea whatsoever.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's what I do. :shrug:

Whatever the reason, arbitrary or not, you said that 14 does not equal 14.0 and I just gave you a concrete example to the contrary. Sorry if it's not convenient.

It's not inconvenient. It's improperly using the practices for measuring phyisical things (time and distance) to measure a non-physical thing (ie the value of money). You may as well say 14 seconds is equivalent to 14 dollars. Makes no sense.

What does that even mean, "not valid"? They don't exist? Or we simply don't care about them? Because I agree that we don't care about them, as I've said. And I think that the rulemakers don't care about them, as I've said. But the shot clock is measuring them...

Wrong.

The shot clock is certainly not guaranteed to "measure" anything between 14 and 15. Surely the shot clock exists thru the time between 15 seconds and 14 seconds (as we do) but you have no standing to say the shot clock "measures" that time. And even if it did actually "measure" that time, how do we know what the measurement is? We don't, because 10ths of seconds are not available to us. IOW they are not valid for use in our measurement.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

It's not inconvenient.

I agree.

It's improperly using the practices for measuring phyisical things (time and distance) to measure a non-physical thing (ie the value of money). You may as well say 14 seconds is equivalent to 14 dollars. Makes no sense.

I disagree. Exactly 14 is equivalent to exactly 14.0. 14 dollars is equivalent to 14.0 dollars. Exactly 14 seconds is equivalent to exactly 14.0 seconds. It is the only sensible thing in this thread.

This whole discussion would go away if the rule simply said "If the shot clock displays 14 seconds or less, reset it to 15".

[Raymond]

2-14.6f. When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 14 seconds or less remaining, set to 15 seconds

2-14.7Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:
b. When an intentionally kicked ball occurs with 15 seconds or more
remaining;

Men's Report...Last season, a rule change was implemented for an intentionally kicked ball that did not require the reset of the shot clock when it showed more than 15 seconds remaining. When 15 or fewer seconds remained, the shot clock was set to 15. To improve its application, the rule now states that when 14 or fewer seconds remain on the shot clock, it will be set to 15 seconds. Furthermore, when the intentional kick occurs with 15 or more seconds, there shall be no reset of the shot clock.

Nowhere in the NCAA rulebook is there mention of 10th's or 100ths of second in reference to the shot clock. If you see 14 reset it to 15, if says 15 or higher, don't reset it.

Please, do not purposely clog a drain just to show off your plumbing skills.