What do you think..........

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Sounds like a double tech, which would be POI. POI would be AP arrow due to no team control at the POI. Shoot the bonus with lane clear and go to AP for throw in. Wonder how they came up with that ruling? I would have to agree with Johns supervisor.

POI would be to play off the shots.

4-36 clearly states that POI is a a free throw or a throw-in when the stoppage occurred during this activity..

AP only occurs when neither team is in comtrol and no goal, infraction, or end of quarter is involved. AP arrow could never be used here...

No way would I agree wit the supervisor here

[Ed Maeder]

I stand corrected. The infraction of the foul would take the AP arrow out of the equation. Shoot the bonus with lane occupied and play on. Thanks Kelvin.

[johnSandlin]

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

Sigh. Unless your state is using some different rules, it matters not whether this was a double T or a double P (and I agree it was a double T).

FED 7-5-9: After a double personal foul ..., a double technical foul ..., or a simultaneous foul ..., [lay shall be resumes at the point of interruption.

Last year's NCAA reference (all I have handy) is 7-5.10

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

Kelvin,

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

Your supervisor doesn't know the rules.

No, it sureasheck shouldn't have been an AP arrow under NFHS rules, as posted above. That's completely wrong. Rule 4-36-1 says that double technical fouls use the POI. Rule 10PENALTIES 1(b) says that there are no Ft's administered for a double technical foul. Rule 4-36-2(b) says that the POI is the bonus free throw(s) that team B is entitled to. You just line 'em up and the team B player that was originally fouled on the rebound gets to shoot the bonus FT's, as already cited above.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, it sureasheck shouldn't have been an AP arrow under NFHS rules, as posted above.

Not under NCAA rules either. So there goes the "active college official" excuse.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Not under NCAA rules either. So there goes the "active college official" excuse.

The only thing I can think of is that he might be an IAABO rules interpreter. You know what they're like some times.

[tomegun]

I would suggest you might not want to believe what you supervisor tells you from now on. At least look things up for yourself because he/she is wrong. Plain and simple, being a college official does not mean you automatically know the rules. Just like high school basketball, officials take many paths to get to where they are. Unfortunately, many of them can get to a high level without knowing the rules and/or "gasp" being able to officiate.

[Adam]

Your supervisor is about two years behind in his rules knowledge.

[johnSandlin]

Jurassic Referee,

No disrespect intended, but my supervisor is bar none the best rules based official that I know of be it high school rules or college rules. I trust his knowledge completely.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

Jurassic Referee,

No disrespect intended, but my supervisor is bar none the best rules based official that I know of be it high school rules or college rules. I trust his knowledge completely.

John, if your supervisor is the best rules based official in your area, then you have a major, major problem, rules-wise imo.

Your supervisor is unequivocally and completely wrong, by the very explicit rules already cited. Your supervisor would be wise to send this play into the NFHS office and get their ruling on it. Your supervisor would also be wise to send this play into the NCAA office and get their ruling on it also. As it stands right now, your supervisor has the unique distinction of being totally and completely wrong in two different rulesets. And, unfortunately, his followers are drinking the koolaid.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnSandlin

At the time of this game, I agreed with your response 100%. But after the discussion with my supervisor, who is also an active college womens official, we did do this wrong.

The double foul happened during dead ball time. Where we made the mistake(s) was (1) totally never thought about the fact that this happened on a dead ball. (2) Cannot have a double personal foul during a dead ball.

It should have been a double T. Shoot bonus FT's with the lane cleared for the original live ball foul during the rebounding action. Use the AP arrow for the double T after the FT's for the original foul at the POI.

The administration of a double T and a double personal are the same. POI.

Case play 4.19.8D deals with a double personal during a free throw. POI, shoot the free throw with everyone lined up.

Case play 4.19.8A (b) deals with a double T (two players fouling each other during a dead ball.) POI is defined the same in either case.

Rule 4-36 clearly states that POI is identical for both situations. Line them up and shoot. No longer do we go to the arrow for double Ts.

What logic is your supervisor using to have different POI for double personals as opposed to double technicals?