Hand checking versus touching

[Rbn3]

I coach a 6th grade travel team and one of the major things I'm trying to accomplish is to teach the kids the rules. I was a poor high school player many years ago in the "pre-hand check" era. I'm glad to see a trend back to that era, but it is still a bit vague to me. I have read the POE for this year and it starts with "hands off". Seems very clear to me. But I still see alot of teams coached by guys younger than me who have obviously taught their kids to "use their hands as their second eyes" - often this goes beyond simply "tagging" the offensive player to find him. My guy is standing at the wing and their guy is next to him with his hand on my guy's chest. I tell my kids that they themselves are not permitted to do that, that defense is played with the eyes and feet, etc. etc. Then they ask me if it's againt the rules. If it is, it never seems to be called.

[refjef40]

I agree with your point but as always you have to see the situation you describe to rule on it.Personally I look for the touch versus a control or push move.If like you say a player just touches to find a player thats okay its when the hand is left there or is used to push or direct I have a foul.If the officials in your area are allowing defenders to keep thier hands on offensive players they are wrong.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Rbn3
I coach a 6th grade travel team and one of the major things I'm trying to accomplish is to teach the kids the rules. I was a poor high school player many years ago in the "pre-hand check" era. I'm glad to see a trend back to that era, but it is still a bit vague to me. I have read the POE for this year and it starts with "hands off". Seems very clear to me. But I still see alot of teams coached by guys younger than me who have obviously taught their kids to "use their hands as their second eyes" - often this goes beyond simply "tagging" the offensive player to find him. My guy is standing at the wing and their guy is next to him with his hand on my guy's chest. I tell my kids that they themselves are not permitted to do that, that defense is played with the eyes and feet, etc. etc. Then they ask me if it's againt the rules. If it is, it never seems to be called.

You're in a tough position, IMO. A lot of the guys/gals
you'll see working your games might be reluctant to call the
handcheck, especially when the kids are using their hands
as a second set of eyes. (BTW, I myself would have a really
tough time making this off-ball call if it's done right,
ie it's not a clear hold.) If you don't teach your team how
to use their hands then you will be at a disadvantage. So
maybe don't be such a purist. Obviously you know how to use
your hands on defense, teach your team how to do this as
well but remind them that some refs will call it more often
than others so they have to adjust. Might be a bit much for
a bunch of 6th graders, maybe devise a defensive set where
they use their hands, maybe a variant on a 2-1-2, you can
see how the game is being called and adjust for them.
Good luck!

(BTW, apologies to the "purists" out there )

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by refjef40
I agree with your point but as always you have to see the situation you describe to rule on it.Personally I look for the touch versus a control or push move. If, like you say, a player just touches to find a player, thats okay. Its when the hand is left there or is used to push or direct I have a foul. If the officials in your area are allowing defenders to keep thier hands on offensive players they are wrong.

What you've just described as OK the NF describes as a foul:
"The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL."

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Rbn3
I coach a 6th grade travel team and one of the major things I'm trying to accomplish is to teach the kids the rules. I was a poor high school player many years ago in the "pre-hand check" era. I'm glad to see a trend back to that era, but it is still a bit vague to me. I have read the POE for this year and it starts with "hands off". Seems very clear to me. But I still see alot of teams coached by guys younger than me who have obviously taught their kids to "use their hands as their second eyes" - often this goes beyond simply "tagging" the offensive player to find him. My guy is standing at the wing and their guy is next to him with his hand on my guy's chest. I tell my kids that they themselves are not permitted to do that, that defense is played with the eyes and feet, etc. etc. Then they ask me if it's againt the rules. If it is, it never seems to be called.

Do not make it complicated. Every rule has some interpretation and practice to it. Handchecking is is no different than the application of the "Resume-Play Procedure." You are going to have different officials interpret the rules differently and apply the rules based on their judgement. If your kids are in my game, I am going to do whatever I can to prevent making a handchecking call. Now this is me, this might not be everyone. I let the play and the kids determine what and how that will be called. If I have a lot of pushing, and the defenders and offense are constantly using their hands to get position or keep position, I have no problem calling it. But if players are not purposely using their hands to accomplish but there hands and not displacing other players, it is going to be very hard to call something just because their hands are on another player.

I big part of the handchecking rule has to do with displacement, control and directing a player in order to be a foul call. If these things are not present, you cannot have a foul.

The biggest problem that players and coaches get themselves into, is that they do not adjust the the officials calling that game. It would be perfect if all officials called the game exactly the same with the same applications a 100% of the time. But we all do not have the same skill and the same training. And if your kids any you learn to adjust to what the officials are calling, you will go a long way in being successful. No different than a strike zone in baseball. If you have an umpire that is calling pitches just on the outside of the plate, as a batter you better be swinging at those pitches, and as a pitcher you better be throwing there. Judgement is a big part of sports, and basketball might we might have more affect on the style of play or what players are doing in a particular game.

Peace

[Fox40]

I agree with most of the replies on this subject (handchecking). A defensive player can "find" his player, but he cannot direct him. I seldom call it (but it has been called) in the frontcourt out near the division line, but if an offensive player with the ball breaks for the basket on a drive and the defensive player is using his
hand(s) to guide the player from driving to the goal a handcheck or possibly a hold can be called. A good rule of thumb for handchecking is either using both hands or the one arm is straight (stiff) out on the other player. A bent arm one hand touch to "find" the other player would be a tough call and a hard one to be consistent on.
If in your example a defensive player was touching my offensive player's chest I would instruct my player to knock his hand away IMHO. If the officiating in the game is consistent you should get a feel as a coach as to how they are going to call it and adjust accordingly.

[Richard Ogg]

It seems to me the POE were really strengthened on this point this year. I know that many officials in my area are just receiving their new rule books and have not read them. Several of the above posts suggests the author, too, has not read the new rule book. These answers look pretty good for last year.

Now the book states very explicitly that any touch is a foul. PERIOD. Will this be called? I'm sure it will vary from official to official with bias from area to area. I will find it hard to call it off-ball when the defender reaches blindly behind them to find the offensive player (additional "eyes"). So far this year if you "measure" the ball-handler in my game you just bought yourself a foul. You cannot "find" the player. That's the rule book, and it leaves no room for varied interpretation. (See the second bullet on page 69, guys.) My intent is to be just as firm on the forearm (bullet #3) except the only action in our area this early is JH girls and they don't generally play the low-post stuff that generates these situations.

One ramification of this is it forces you to call the handcheck-on-the-drive foul earlier and generally before the shot. Earlier this week I was the only choice for a second ref in my 8th grade daughter's game. Early in the game I wiped her made basket off due to a handcheck at the top of the paint. (I later wiped another one off for palming as she drove the key. She has not talked to me about the game.)

The biggest potential problem I see is if an area has a bunch of veteran ref's that refuse to learn or change and insist on calling the game like they used to. That will create a lot of inconsistency. Some associations may realize they have this problem and therefore instruct everyone to some middle ground.

So coach, like I tell my daughter every week, you have to play the game you get, not the one you want. I doubt you need to teach the hands because it comes pretty natural. You will have to find a way to adjust during each game. (That's why they pay you the big bucks! )

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I too played H.S. basketball in the "no touch" era and my coach was also a basketball official. We were taught not to touch your opponent.

You do not need to touch your opponent to find him. You find your opponent by seeing him. The major reason we have rough play, especially in the post, is the unecessary touch of opponents. A1 touches or puts his hands on B1, B1 does not want A1's hands on him, so B1 slaps A1's hands away from him and the game of pattycake and worse is on.

A player does not need to touch or feel for his opponent. Especially if A1 is setting a legal stationary screen out of B1's vision. B1 gains an unfair advantage when he feels for A1 to avoid contact with A1.

I tell A1 only once not to touch and A1 is usually the only player on Team A I have to tell because the next time A1 touches a player I call a foul and everybody on the both teams get the idea. I never warn for hand checking fouls. The is a no brainer.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
Now the book states very explicitly that any touch is a foul. PERIOD. Will this be called?

It's just like any other POE. It will be called for the first couple of weeks. Then the coaches will start complaining to the booking agents about officials who are calling it, while others are not calling it. It's no different than palming or intentional fouls, which were POE last year. I called them by the book last year for the first month and caught more grief than I ever have before. Or ever will again, if you get my drift.

I'm no longer a purist, Dan. Now I am a realist.

[Rbn3]

Donald Flether, a famous ethicist, wrote a book called "situation ethics". Richard Nixon invoked it to justify some questionable behavior. My kids are not bound for the NBA, but they will need to learn teamwork and how to play by the rules. They all have been in the car with a parent who went by a policeman going 40 in a 30 zone wihtout being stopped. Especially at our level, if every infraction were whistled,we might as well schedule free throw contests instead of games. And every call can't be adjudicated by a 5-4 decision by the Supremes. I'll teach the kids the rules, including the POE's, because playing by the rules, in the long, long run is best.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

It's just like any other POE. It will be called for the first couple of weeks. Then the coaches will start complaining to the booking agents about officials who are calling it, while others are not calling it. It's no different than palming or intentional fouls, which were POE last year. I called them by the book last year for the first month and caught more grief than I ever have before. Or ever will again, if you get my drift.

I'm no longer a purist, Dan. Now I am a realist.

Actually you are not the purist I was thinking of, and I
do recall that you were burned last year by following the
POE to the letter. Anyway, I did have someone in mind
and he did not disappoint me. I don't want to mention any
names but (ahem) geeze Mark I gotta admit you are
consistent.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
It seems to me the POE were really strengthened on this point this year. I know that many officials in my area are just receiving their new rule books and have not read them. Several of the above posts suggests the author, too, has not read the new rule book. These answers look pretty good for last year.

Now the book states very explicitly that any touch is a foul. PERIOD. Will this be called? I'm sure it will vary from official to official with bias from area to area. I will find it hard to call it off-ball when the defender reaches blindly behind them to find the offensive player (additional "eyes"). So far this year if you "measure" the ball-handler in my game you just bought yourself a foul. You cannot "find" the player. That's the rule book, and it leaves no room for varied interpretation. (See the second bullet on page 69, guys.) My intent is to be just as firm on the forearm (bullet #3) except the only action in our area this early is JH girls and they don't generally play the low-post stuff that generates these situations.

One ramification of this is it forces you to call the handcheck-on-the-drive foul earlier and generally before the shot. Earlier this week I was the only choice for a second ref in my 8th grade daughter's game. Early in the game I wiped her made basket off due to a handcheck at the top of the paint. (I later wiped another one off for palming as she drove the key. She has not talked to me about the game.)

The biggest potential problem I see is if an area has a bunch of veteran ref's that refuse to learn or change and insist on calling the game like they used to. That will create a lot of inconsistency. Some associations may realize they have this problem and therefore instruct everyone to some middle ground.

So coach, like I tell my daughter every week, you have to play the game you get, not the one you want. I doubt you need to teach the hands because it comes pretty natural. You will have to find a way to adjust during each game. (That's why they pay you the big bucks! )

When your games have 15 fouls and both teams are in the Two Shoot Bonus by the middle of the second quarter, I bet you will not be calling too many "touch" fouls after that. I understand what the NF is trying to do, but we still must use common sense. Players touch each other incidentally sometimes and it would be hard pressed to call fouls on a defender that in no way tried to influence or did not influence the actions of a ball handler and definitely not a post player. There still has to be some advantage to call a foul on a player in my opinion. But then again, you have to do what is acceptable in your area or by your assignors.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Oct 4th, 2001 at 11:11 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

When your games have 15 fouls and both teams are in the Two Shoot Bonus by the middle of the second quarter, I bet you will not be calling too many "touch" fouls after that. I understand what the NF is trying to do, but we still must use common sense. Players touch each other incidentally sometimes and it would be hard pressed to call fouls on a defender that in no way tried to influence or did not influence the actions of a ball handler and definitely not a post player. There still has to be some advantage to call a foul on a player in my opinion. But then again, you have to do what is acceptable in your area or by your assignors.

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Oct 4th, 2001 at 11:11 PM]

Ya know what? I would not mind calling a game with you.
Nice post.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Actually you are not the purist I was thinking of, and I
do recall that you were burned last year by following the
POE to the letter.

I knew I wasn't BUT I USED TO BE A PURIST, until last year.

BTW, I'm quickly becoming a realist in football, too.

Same sh*t, different sport.

[mick]

It is my opinion that the new P.O.E. were written to reduce, not totally eliminate, the unnecessary touching and pushing that may occur during a game.
I think the rule framers know darn well that we are not going to call the "as written" rules, but they realize that the intent of the rulings will seep into play, and play will then become more moderate.
By drawing my own lines, with regard to the P.O.E., I have found that last year's borderline "should-I-or-shouldn't-I" calls are much easier to call. I have also found that I have been automatically calling the "forearm bar", which, when called early, has a tendency to go away for the rest of the game.
After nearly 7 weeks of Michigan girls' hoops, I am still using the guidelines (see another post below) with which I began the season, and the players and coaches have rarely reacted very strongly, or negatively.
Don't feel uncomfortable drawing your own lines to eliminate some of the stuff that makes our jobs hard. We have to remember, that "they" get the same rule books that we get. "They" go to the same rules meetings and "they" hear the same "official interps".
mick