Techical Foul-Ejection

[Adam]

I've yet to have an actual punch throwin in one of my games, yet I've had to manage 6 ejections (not counting one particularly beligerent YMCA coach). First one was a bear-hug wrestling drop move responded to with an elbow to the stomach, and followed up by a third player running in to back up his teammate. It didn't matter what he did since he didn't actually direct his attention to his teammate. Bear hugger bought himself another T when he decided to tell the crowd he thought they were ranked #1.
Next was another bear-hug drop move and the ensuing elbow to the stomach. The only two I felt bad about where the two who were dropped and elbowed in response.
Next (three weeks ago) was a very hard shove. A 250 lb. forward nearly pushed a 150 lb. point guard through the floor boards stopping a layup.

Bottom line, a punch is hardly necessary for a flagrant foul, and a lot of refs will give an automatic ejection with an elbow to the face. I wouldn't, but we also don't know what this ref's association/assigner has told him.

[shave-tail]

Dan ref,

I have no idea where you get the notion that I was bad mouthing the officials. I didn't realize I had to be so detailed in my postings so I wouldn't hurt your feelings.

I was in the stands four or five rows above everyone else with my wife and daughter. The whistle blows....technical foul with an ejection. I lean over to my wife and said, "must have been a good one".

Later that night......after the game I'm waiting for my son in the hallway when my friend...the boys father and knows that I officiated basketball for a while comes up to me and said he had a chance to talk with the official and that he explains to dad that any elbow to the face is an automatic ejection. He asked if that is the rule.

I said I didn't think so. But since I've been out of the game for 2 years I would go ask and see if there has been any changes.


Earlier in one of you posts you said you would have walked right by him and ignored him.....with an attitude like that it's no wonder you have time for 7000+ posts.


I hope that this I not how you treat everyone who posts a legitimate question about the rules and only wanting to learn. And yes I said rules not a judgement call.

It's odd, after all your blah, blah posts you never did answer the question. But I quess it's alright, far better officials already did.

So I guess as far as my "yap" is concerned, I'll run it any time I feel like it.

End of post.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by shave-tail

Dan ref,

1) I have no idea where you get the notion that I was bad mouthing the officials.

2) Earlier in one of you posts you said you would have walked right by him and ignored him.....with an attitude like that it's no wonder you have time for 7000+ posts.

1) He got the notion from your post. You were completely wrong in your understanding of the rule and your reaction when you responded to the father during the game. You basically told the father that a punch had to be thrown for ejection. That's wrong now and it was wrong 2 years ago when you gave up officiating. An elbow to the head is more often than not called flagrant if the calling official judged it to to be deliberately thrown. It's a deliberate attempt to injure and it deserves an ejection. A missed elbow could also be ruled flagrant if it led to as fight. Those are judgement calls, and what you were basically doing was second-guessing the judgement of the official on the floor publically BEFORE you had a chance to hear his explanation. Well, fan, that's OK because you are a fan. We expect no more or no less from most fans. For an official however, it's unprofessional and completely wrong- as Dan pointed out, and will usually get you suspended if you're caught doing something like that. It will certainly earn you the enmity of your fellow officials. And....an ex-official should really know better anyway not to comment when he didn't know why the call was made. Apparently, you didn't understand that- unfortunately- but that's OK as long as you stay an ex-official.

2) We train our officials to walk right by fans at the end of games, without saying anything or responding to them. Most officials associations do the same afaik. No good can ever come from by-play with the spectators after a game, especially with a father who has just seen his son ejected. That's an invitation to disaster. It's not an attitude; it's common sense. Too many of our fellow officials have been assaulted after games following incidents exactly like the one you detailed. After the game, you get away from the fans and you stay away from the fans. End of story.

That's how it is, shave-tail, like it or not.

[GoodwillRef]

Dan Ref and Shave-Tail,

Why don’t you guys go out back and settle this like men...Rock, Paper, Scissors...two out of three!

[Raymond]

I don't talk to fans after games, most fans ARE NOT jerks, when I'm in the stands I never comment to a fan about a call on the court unless it's in the course of telling the fan to STFU , Dan needs to take a Midol.

[Chess Ref]

Before I tell my little story I want to make sure I have this right.

Player A throws elbow to face of Player B. I tweet . I have an intentional foul that I deem flagrant. Junior is then DQ. I know there are other options but I want to make sure this option could be a correct option ....

I saw this happen. Boys Jv tourney .Two rivals from pretty decent programs. So for JV teams they have it going on. player A ,during a live ball, throws elbow into face of player B. Nice solid contact. Refs call a personal foul-ball on the sideline. About 2 minutes later Player A throws another elbow and makes contact again. They tweet and give a technical. And then Player A goes on to be a major problem child the rest of the game.....

IMO the first elbow thrown and subsequent contact was so far beyond the line that the kid needed to be sitting down for the rest of the night.

[tomegun]

Are this many officials really calling technical fouls for contact during live ball?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Are this many officials really calling technical fouls for contact during live ball?

I gave this sitch to one of our higher ups and he told me you can call a technical foul on anyone at anytime. I filed this in my "I don't think so file ".

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Are this many officials really calling technical fouls for contact during live ball?

Wow, I had to quote myself!

I have been reading (on this board) and listening (in my local area) about officials calling technical fouls on contact during live balls. So my question was asking if this is happening a lot. I ask that because it shouldn't be! We are talking about contact during a live ball. Please don't muddy the waters by adding unsportsmanlike act into the equation. Make your own equation for that!

[Scrapper1]

Yes, Dan should check out the great taste of decaf. Yes, Dan needs a Midol. While I agree that officials -- and probably ex-officials -- should not berate other officials on the floor, if somebody asks you "is that the rule?", your options are limited. Lie, answer the question honestly and diplomatically, or feign death until the other person leaves. I respectfully opt for the honest and diplomatic approach.

Having said that, in answer to the original question of whether an elbow to the head is an automatic ejection, I believe that the NBA has a rule that is close to that. Maybe the official works some pro-am ball and got confused.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Yes, Dan should check out the great taste of decaf. Yes, Dan needs a Midol. While I agree that officials -- and probably ex-officials -- should not berate other officials on the floor, if somebody asks you "is that the rule?", your options are limited. Lie, answer the question honestly and diplomatically, or feign death until the other person leaves. I respectfully opt for the honest and diplomatic approach.

Having said that, in answer to the original question of whether an elbow to the head is an automatic ejection, I believe that the NBA has a rule that is close to that. Maybe the official works some pro-am ball and got confused.

Coupla things here Scappy.

1. In my experience when I'm sitting with the fannies and am asked my opinion on something that happened on the floor there is only 1 answer that immediately ends the conversation:

"Sorry friend, I wasn't looking. I have no idea what just happened."

2. As we all know "automatic" is not just a rule book term. There are some things that result in "automatic" calls. Not found in the rule book but just as valid. While I don't agree necesarily that it's a good thing to have "automatic" calls in your bag of tricks, it might be that this official referee'ing a JH contest might have been told by a mentor that elbows to the head are automatic ejections.

Since the OP keeps changing his story I suppose we'll never know what actually happened.

edit...

and btw, decaf will give you cancer. It's true, I read it on the internet.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

1) Player A throws elbow to face of Player B. I tweet . I have an intentional foul that I deem flagrant. Junior is then DQ. I know there are other options but I want to make sure this option could be a correct option ....

2) I saw this happen. Boys Jv tourney .Two rivals from pretty decent programs. So for JV teams they have it going on. player A ,during a live ball, throws elbow into face of player B. Nice solid contact. Refs call a personal foul-ball on the sideline. About 2 minutes later Player A throws another elbow and makes contact again. They tweet and give a technical.

1) Wrong concept. You can have an intentional foul that is either personal or technical in nature. Rule 4-19-3. You can have a flagrant foul that is either personal or technical in nature. Rule 4-19-4. There is no such beast as an intentional flagrant foul, either personal or technical. It's true, it's true....

2) If the contact occurred during a live ball, it can never be called a technical foul. The 4 options on the elbow call are a player or team control foul(dependant on whether the elbower was holding or dribbling the ball at the time of the elbow), an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

2) If the contact occurred during a live ball, it can never be called a technical foul. The 4 options on the elbow call are a player or team control foul(dependant on whether the elbower was holding or dribbling the ball at the time of the elbow), an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

If the live ball act (an elbow to the insert-body-part-here) was deemed to be "fighting" by the official, would it not be a (flagrant) technical foul?

10-3-9 Player Techincal - A player shall not: Be charged with fighting.

4-18 Fighting - Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.

And doesn't this contradict 4-19-4?

4-19-4 A flagrant foul may be a personal or technical foul of a violent or savage nature, or a technical noncontact foul which displays unacceptable conduct. It may or may not be intentional. If personal, it involves, but is not limited to violent contact such as: striking, kicking and kneeing. If technical, it involves dead-ball contact or noncontact at any time which is extreme or persistent, vulgar or abusive conduct. Fighting is a flagrant act.

[lpneck]

WTF?

From my understanding, here is the order of events.

a.) Foul and ejection are called- no bad mouthing of official.

b.) Game ends. A good amount of time after the game is over, parent of ejected player (who may not have even seen the play), politely asks official for an explanation of what happened.

c.) The official, good guy that he is, gives his interpretation to the parent. (Which he is under NO obligation to do.) Part of his explanation is the foul was not flagrant, but an elbow to the face is an automatic ejection.

d.) The parent, having a friend who he knows has officiating experience, asks if that is a correct interpretation of the rule. (Which it is NOT- there is certainly a ton of reasoning to call this a flagrant foul, but if the official did not believe it was a flagrant act -which is what he said- he should not have ejected the player.)

e.) Shave-tail says he does not believe the interpretation is correct, but he is not 100% sure, so he will get on the internets, where you can find the answer to anything, because there is a message board with officials opinions that he respects.

f.) Said officials flame him for three pages for being critical of the official.

Nice.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by lpneck

WTF?

From my understanding, here is the order of events.

a.) Foul and ejection are called- no bad mouthing of official.

b.) Game ends. A good amount of time after the game is over, parent of ejected player (who may not have even seen the play), politely asks official for an explanation of what happened.

c.) The official, good guy that he is, gives his interpretation to the parent. (Which he is under NO obligation to do.) Part of his explanation is the foul was not flagrant, but an elbow to the face is an automatic ejection.

d.) The parent, having a friend who he knows has officiating experience, asks if that is a correct interpretation of the rule. (Which it is NOT- there is certainly a ton of reasoning to call this a flagrant foul, but if the official did not believe it was a flagrant act -which is what he said- he should not have ejected the player.)

e.) Shave-tail says he does not believe the interpretation is correct, but he is not 100% sure, so he will get on the internets, where you can find the answer to anything, because there is a message board with officials opinions that he respects.

f.) Said officials flame him for three pages for being critical of the official.

Nice.

Go back and read the first post again. And try comprehending it this time. Shave-tail told the father during the game that you could only toss somebody if a punch was thrown. At that time, shave-tail didn't have a clue what the actual call was; he was just, plain and simple, second-guessing the official with no actual knowledge of what the call was. Shave-tails statement to the father during the game was also completely wrong, by rule also.

That's why shave-tail got flamed. That's why if shave-tail was an official, shave-tail woulda been in deep doo-doo if he had been caught doing that.

Most officials are aware of that.