I would not be so harsh but if the elbow was intentional or considerd to be flagrent then I have a flagrent foul and automatic disqualification, two free throws and the ball.

"I told the father that the only time I ever called this was when a punch was thrown (ejection)."

So you said to your fellow fan that either

1. You've never understood the related rules or
2. The official on the floor doesn't understand the related rules.

(yeah yeah yeah you leave open the possibility that the rules might have changed since you actually did this officiating stuff...which means there's actually a third possibility: )

3. You have no idea what the rules are now.

So which is it? You criticized *your* understanding of the rules? You criticized *the official's* understanding of the rules? Or you pleaded ignorance about what you were about to tell your fellow fan?

In any event, as I said if you were an active official what you did would have opened you up to all sorts of grief from your association.

Well I really don't see the problem if he doesn't know, saying so, and finding out. If the father approaches the ref, which he should not, the ref has the right to explain or ignore him and continue on to the locker room or car or wherever he was going. If anyone tactfully approaches me I will happily explain the rule not my judgement. However, having said that I limit my contact with fans, players, and even coaches at games so that no perception of favortism is relayed. I have not had to much trouble with this. If I am a spectator I only discuss calls with other officials not the other spectators.

Dan ref,

You caught me, posing as an ex-official. There are you happy....I'll say anything to keep you from posting in the thread. Sort of like beating a confession out of an innocent person.

When I said I hadn't officiated in the last 2 years. It's because my daughter is in high school and my son is in JH.

And as far as being a fan now, I usually never comment on the officials.....except to defend them.

But the call and explaination was something I had never heard of and was asking for clarification on any rule changes.

Thanks to those helped me out.

i have never personally had a problem with a fan asking a question dependin on how they approach, how they ask and the type of setting. I dont discuss and I let them know its not a discussion but I will tell them the reason. This has maybe happened twice. I dont see why you have to jump to game management to get a jerk of your back if the father wanted to know what his son did and whether the son needs a talking to or not. And if the official said he thinks he got it wrong and maybe he was a bit harsh then the father -- if he is responsible -- might not have to chew jimmy out as bad as he thought.

why do we cluster ALL fans as jerks -- most yes but reading people body language and how they approach you can dictate intent and whether they will be civilized and just want to know What rather then What the #$%*

Gotta say, begging for mercy isn't usually the best way to argue your case.

Just so you understand, as an ex-official you should know not to discuss calls with fans. Keep your yap shut. Rule #1.

You didn't follow rule #1. Like it or not that's the case. You can paint it any way you like, but you criticized an official's call during a game using your standing as a former official. (Of course as I already explained you have no standing.)

And you're welcome, I am very glad I could straighten you out. We're all hoping you'll just keep your yap shut next time.

I've yet to have an actual punch throwin in one of my games, yet I've had to manage 6 ejections (not counting one particularly beligerent YMCA coach). First one was a bear-hug wrestling drop move responded to with an elbow to the stomach, and followed up by a third player running in to back up his teammate. It didn't matter what he did since he didn't actually direct his attention to his teammate. Bear hugger bought himself another T when he decided to tell the crowd he thought they were ranked #1.
Next was another bear-hug drop move and the ensuing elbow to the stomach. The only two I felt bad about where the two who were dropped and elbowed in response.
Next (three weeks ago) was a very hard shove. A 250 lb. forward nearly pushed a 150 lb. point guard through the floor boards stopping a layup.

Bottom line, a punch is hardly necessary for a flagrant foul, and a lot of refs will give an automatic ejection with an elbow to the face. I wouldn't, but we also don't know what this ref's association/assigner has told him.

Dan ref,

I have no idea where you get the notion that I was bad mouthing the officials. I didn't realize I had to be so detailed in my postings so I wouldn't hurt your feelings.

I was in the stands four or five rows above everyone else with my wife and daughter. The whistle blows....technical foul with an ejection. I lean over to my wife and said, "must have been a good one".

Later that night......after the game I'm waiting for my son in the hallway when my friend...the boys father and knows that I officiated basketball for a while comes up to me and said he had a chance to talk with the official and that he explains to dad that any elbow to the face is an automatic ejection. He asked if that is the rule.

I said I didn't think so. But since I've been out of the game for 2 years I would go ask and see if there has been any changes.


Earlier in one of you posts you said you would have walked right by him and ignored him.....with an attitude like that it's no wonder you have time for 7000+ posts.


I hope that this I not how you treat everyone who posts a legitimate question about the rules and only wanting to learn. And yes I said rules not a judgement call.

It's odd, after all your blah, blah posts you never did answer the question. But I quess it's alright, far better officials already did.

So I guess as far as my "yap" is concerned, I'll run it any time I feel like it.

End of post.

Dan's not saying he would have ignored the fan if he was you (well, maybe he would have), he's saying if he was the official who made the call and was questioned by the father, he would have ignored him and walked on.

1) He got the notion from your post. You were completely wrong in your understanding of the rule and your reaction when you responded to the father <b>during</b> the game. You basically told the father that a punch had to be thrown for ejection. That's wrong now and it was wrong 2 years ago when you gave up officiating. An elbow to the head is more often than not called flagrant if the calling official judged it to to be deliberately thrown. It's a deliberate <b>attempt</b> to injure and it deserves an ejection. A <b>missed</b> elbow could also be ruled flagrant if it led to as fight. Those are judgement calls, and what you were basically doing was second-guessing the judgement of the official on the floor <b>publically</b> BEFORE you had a chance to hear his explanation. Well, fan, that's OK because you are a fan. We expect no more or no less from most fans. For an official however, it's unprofessional and completely wrong- as Dan pointed out, and will usually get you suspended if you're caught doing something like that. It will certainly earn you the enmity of your fellow officials. And....an ex-official should really know better anyway not to comment when he didn't know why the call was made. Apparently, you didn't understand that- unfortunately- but that's OK as long as you <b>stay</b> an ex-official.

2) We train our officials to walk right by fans at the end of games, without saying anything or responding to them. Most officials associations do the same afaik. No good can ever come from by-play with the spectators after a game, especially with a father who has just seen his son ejected. That's an invitation to disaster. It's not an attitude; it's common sense. Too many of our fellow officials have been assaulted after games following incidents exactly like the one you detailed. After the game, you get away from the fans and you <b>stay</b> away from the fans. End of story.

That's how it is, shave-tail, like it or not.

We cluster all fans as jerks because if you don't, you have a good chance of becoming part of the statistics of sports officials who have been assaulted. Be Mr. Nice Guy if you want. Just know that you're taking your chances by doing so.

I realize I may take the heat off of shave-tail and put it on myself, but besides Dan who has made his position very clear, how does everyone feel about explaining rules to fellow fans (rules and their interpretations, not judgement calls)?

In my case, I limit my discussions to family and friends (not just some run of the mill fan) and always limit my discussion of any play to the rules as written. For example, during football season, I attended my old HS's homecoming game with my bestfriend and our wives and a question of the requirement to have 7 men on the LOS was posed to me by my best friend. Our old HS had been flagged multiple times for not having enough men on the line, and he asked if that was the right call. I simply explained that there must be 7 on the line, and that requirement wasn't being met. He didn't realize why (because they don't announce numbers, he was looking at WR's and TE's) and pressed the issue, so I began watching the linemen a little closer and caught the Tackle lining up in the backfield. I pointed this out before the play began and explained that aspect of the rule to my friend and how the rule stipulates whether or not a lineman is on the line or not. Sure enough out came a flag. I never questioned the officials judgement (obviously because I agreed, but had I not agreed and been asked, I would have fallen back on the old "the on-field official is in much better position to observe this" routine and kept my personal opinion to myself).

I find a football example easier to go with because in basketball I find most "rules" questions from friends or family are actually "was that really a foul" question, in which case I say it was a foul and my F&F know not even to ask. I've explained the AP issue where the arrow doesn't change because of a violation or foul before the AP throw-in is over, but again only in terms of B fouled A before the throw-in was complete A keeps the arrow and not the foul itself.

I know long post, but how many would deem even a discussion in this manner to be not appropriate?

In the 2002-03 season the NFHS changed the penalty for excessively swinging one's arms/elbows from a technical foul to a violation.
In the rules book for that same year under Point of Emphasis #4 Rough Play the NFHS wrote the following:
Excess Swinging of Arm(s)/Elbow(s)
-When there is no contact with an opponent is now a violation.
-If contact is made, the official must judge the severity of the act and possibly even determine intent.
-A player control foul, an intentional foul or a flagrant foul may be called.

(All of these fouls listed would be PERSONAL fouls if the contact occurred during a live ball, as was the case in your situation. So if the official called a technical foul, he goofed that part. However, a flagrant personal foul that carries a disqualification as part of the penalty certainly is a possibility on this play. That is up to the judgment of the calling official. [If the contact occurred during a dead ball then the type of foul would be technical.])

This is still the current rule for NFHS games.

We did say this was a junior high game right...maybe the guy working the game is new and doesn't know all the rules. We all made mistakes when we were just starting out and possibly another official told him that this act is an automatic ejection. With that said maybe it would have been more proper for you to talk to the official after the game and use this as a learning experience and help him out. But, Dan Ref is right, you need to watch what you say and do as a fan when people around you know you are an official or an ex-official.

Dan Ref and Shave-Tail,

Why don’t you guys go out back and settle this like men...Rock, Paper, Scissors...two out of three!