Eyepoke
 

I had a situation last night in my game and am looking for input. I am C and have A1 with the ball right in front of me defended by B1. B1 swats at the ball and apparently pokes A1 in the eye which I do not see. A1 cradles the ball with one arm and covers his eye with his other hand then starts to pivot on his pivot foot in pain.

Do you call a late foul? Call an officials timeout for his injury? Play on? What are your thoughts?

I've had this situation before. If you realize it fast enough you can come with a late whistle for a foul. Still, some will say if you don't actually see the foul you can't call it.

The 2 or 3 times I've come with a late foul whistle no one has ever complained.

If you're reffing in Texas, this is called a "cowpoke". :p

Don't call a foul if you don't see it. Stop the play for injury, player has to come out.

Blow the whistle. It's a foul.

Blow the whistle for the foul. Give the player a chance to recover before forcing the substitution.

Perhaps the most succinctly wrong post in a long time.

or at least since lunch time:D

He gets props here for being succinct and wrong. It's not easy to wrong twice when you're only posting two sentences.
Apparently, when one gets bored with taking all the trophies, one must create new categories.

Calling a foul, however late, is the best way to handle this situation. Nobody will complain....if they do, then you know you've got someone who can be ignored for the rest of the game.

I've no-called this before (early in my career) and regretted it. I knew what happened but didn't call it because I didn't "see" it. I stopped play for the injury to give A1 a moment to recover. He played on. Should have called the foul.

What, have you guys lost your mind! Call a foul that you didn't see! How in the sam blue hill you gonna tell a ref to call a foul they didn't see? What if the player is faking? Did you ever think of that? This is why you make him sit down. He could be faking, since I'm not sure, I'm going to side on the side of caution. If he's not hurt great, he can now sit down for faking an injury. If he is hurt, great we can get somebody to attend to it. If the coach wants to complain about missing a foul here. Well, guess what coach, players miss F/T too, it happens.

Geece...I can't believe you would penalize a player for a foul when you didn't see. That's teaching them...

That's more like it. Take your time, take a deep breath, and be thoroughly wrong.

I have always ruled an inadvertent poke in the eye to not be a foul. I simply stop the game and give the player a moment or two to recover. Invariably the opponent is apologetic and the game continues nicely.

That's just what works for me.

It seems that I've seen more of this, this season, so just my two cents:
...if I didn't see the poke, I have a hard time calling a foul. If need be, however I do call my time and give the offensive player time to recover. Like earlier posts -- the player can stay in the game and I warn the defensive player.
...if I saw the defensive player make a play I considered unsafe, I have called a foul...and warned him (or at least looked at him a bit sternly).

We actually had a game early this year where a coach apparently taught a technique to his players to get in a good defensive position with hands down -- but then bring their hands up in efforts to make a steal. I thought the first 'inadvertent' slap up someone's face was just that. But then it happened again and we called a foul. The third time (not the same player) we called a technical and the coach got the players to tone their actions back a bit.

Maybe the right idea, but the wrong method.

You can't call a technical foul, by rule, for a contact foul committed during a live ball. To make your point, your options would have been an intentional personal foul or a flagrant personal foul.

Fwiw, that's a legal play in the WWE. It's called a Greco-Roman eyepoke.

If I recognize it's a poke quickly enough, it's a foul. If I don't see it until a few seconds later, I'll just stop the game.

If they fake me out over this, then good on them, I suppose.

What??

Maybe you were a big Moe Howard fan as a kid?

Or maybe you just didn't like Curly.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urlyhoward.jpg

Nyuck nyuck nuck.

Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck....

The blind leading the......
 

If I don't see a push but see a man on the ground should I call it??? Why would anyone call something they don't see?

Welcome to the forum! As much as it pains me to say this, to some degree I agree with OS. I don't feel comfortable calling a foul I didn't see. And yes, I've seen coaches go nuts over an eyepoke, but I just tell 'em, do you want me to call what I SEE or what I THINK happened?

If I see the swipe and the reaction, I've seen the foul. If I'm straight-lined on a player running into another one, all I'm likely to see is the intial direction and the reaction. I may not actually see the contact that caused the fall.

No one is saying to call the foul if you don't see the swipe, only that if you don't literally see the finger hit the eye you can still call the foul.

If I don't see it, I'm not calling a foul. I will stop the game, but how can I guess at that and call a foul? What if A1's head movement contributed more to the contact than B1's moving hands? We're penalizing the defense for that? I don't think so.

Fakers
 

I don't know where this occurred, but I saw it on ESPN last season in college baseball. A player struck out and threw himself to the ground, acting like the pitch hit him. The ump didn't buy it. The player had such a hissy fit, he was ejected from the game. The game was recorded, and it was very obvious that he was never hit by the pitch. Boy, talk about taking it to the extreme! In other words, I guess a player COULD conceivably act like they got poked in the eye, but what player is going to take a chance on giving up the ball and not get the call?

apples to peanuts -- the batter in baseball is OUT hes trying his luck to get on base.

In basketball when I have seen this once or twice I might NOT actually see the finger go in the eye but I call the fould be it half a second or second late because most (and by most I mean 99.9%) are not going to fake a poke in the eye when they are being guarded because basketball players are not taught to act while they have the ball -- its after they lose it or get a foul called. but as long as they have possession you wont hear much from him -- wait till he gets blocked or ripped of the rock then you might hear some crying and excuses and bs.

But the ball in a players hand is like truth syrum players act and respond to what actually happens at the time not what they hope had happened to save their azz :)

Kind of what I was getting at. If a player has the ball, he's thinking of what he can do with it, not how he can get a cheap call.

True but how can you honestly call something you don't see. That's like calling a block because you think he moved!

Thanks for the welcome by the way. I think you should call what you think you see not what you think happened even though you did not see it. I was in a game last night where I called a kid for elbowing. He told his coach the other guy was holding his jersey and the coach told the kid to play through it because the ref always catches the second violation. I'm sure if the kid would have stepped away from the opponenet instead of elbowing I may have seen the hold but I couldn't call it because I didn't see it even if I thought he may have held before the elbow.

In these cases you SHOULD have seen the swipe -- you might not see the contact but the reaction spells it out. Call the foul fix the eye get the ball in play. Never had a complain or problem and the defender always appologizes. Preventative when possible -- and calling a block has nothing to do with this -- either he blocked or took a charge nothing to do with think he moved.

besides we all know he CAN move and that has nothing to do with a block/charge -- armymanjones what DOES have to do with a charge? (or PC foul)

This is my point, too. If you see the swipe, you can call the foul. If you don't see the swipe, don't call the foul. If you expect to actually see the finger in the eye, you're never going to make that call, IMO.

I stopped the game. Coach protested a little to the tableside T about a foul but dropped it quickly.

Ok, maybe bad example, but my point being was that you should not call what you don't see. Even if you should have seen it. If you are T and you are watching and counting A1 advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt with no pressure frome team B and you momentarily take your eye off the ball handler (I know not proper but it happens) and the B coach yells he double dribbled do you call it although you didn't see it? I'm not trying to over analyse just want to make the point of calling what you see and not what you don't.

The difference is there's no evidence of the double dribble after the fact. The other difference is no one is suggesting you call the foul if you didn't at least see the swipe around the face. All we're saying is you don't to see the finger in the eye to call this foul, seeing the swipe is enough.

I agree. From most angles, you aren't going to be able to see the actual contact with the eye. If you only call a foul when you see the actual eye poke, you are going to miss this most of the time.

I agree seeing the swipe is enough but if you don't at least see the swipe and only the player holding his eye you can't call it.

I am watching KSU vs Xavier and saw the same play, a player gettting poked on a rebound. The kid went down with the ball the lead stopped the clock and waited for the kid to see if he could continue. He could not and was removed but no foul was called. The camera of course caught the poke but not the refs. Good no call.

Great no call -- kid gets poked in the eye and nothing is called.

Looks like Old School has a friend.

So RF who do you call the foul on? Do you just tag the closest person?

This one's tricky for me. I have trouble calling what I didn't see but I seriously doubt the guy poked himself in the eye.

The only time I"ve ever seen a poke that was enough to stop a player, it happened in the midst of about 8 players going up for a rebound all at the same time. One player comes out of the pack with the hand over the eye. No way to call it. If it's clear that there was a swipe by a certain player, and there is clearly a real injury (as opposed to a fake), I'll call a foul, even if I didn't actually see the finger in the eye.

At a camp I went to, a very high level D1 official told us, "In the last 4 minutes of the game, any 'meltdown' is a foul. Automatic. No kid is going to fake getting hit in the face in the last 4 minutes of a close game." His definition of a meltdown was a kid just stopping playing to hold a piece of his anatomy. Any time a kid just stops playing and grabs his eye, nose, groin, etc, it's because he was fouled. Call it.

In theory, I understand the desire NOT to call something that you didn't see. But in real life, the kid got fouled. So call it.

What Art McDonald actually said Scrappy-doo-doo is to call the meltdown at any point in the game, not just at the end.

He will be missed.

in that instance on the rebound it could be a no call -- incedental -- when the dribbler has the ball and defender swipes to steal and missess and pokes big difference.

I think there's a little BS in that serum you're trying to feed us. Remember, this is competition, not a spelling test. If I can get my opponent in foul trouble, I'm going to try, and I know it's taught somewhere. I personally have seen it in the men's game. I have seen players flop, after shooting the ball in order to try and sale that they got hit in the face. Please don't tell me that players won't try and flop to sale a foul call when they got the ball. If my opponent who happens to be a star player or a very good player is in foul trouble and he is guarding me, and takes a swipe at me across my face as I try and maneuver. I grab my face, oh, he just hit me, oh, oh, oh, while still holding the ball. Maybe they don't do that in the games you ref but that's not consistent across the board. Keep reffing, you will be amazed at what you will see over time.

Also, because of your inputs here. Coaches will read this and learn that most of you, will succumb to this tactic because of exactly what you just said Deecee. Because in this one instance, you stepped out of reality and what's real and venture into the unknown, what I thought just happen. Not a good place to go as an official. I was told never to guess. If I'm not sure, I'm not putting air in the whistle. I will however, portect the player.

All contact is not a foul. You can be poked in the eye and the opponent did nothing. I have seen players get hit in the face because they put their face where it does not belong and they get poked in they eye. You cannot call a foul that you do not see. Basketball is a contact sport and sometimes people get poked in the eye. Next thing we are going to suggest is someone gets hit in the face with the basketball we must call something there too.

Peace

in 8 years of officiating I have never seen a player with the ball flop -- when I have called these it is VERY evident that they were poked -- NO PLAYER is going to put themselves in a weak position WITH the ball

like I said flops occur when they lose the ball, after a shot or turnover. but any player with an IQ over 2 will not put themselves at a huge disadvantage when they have the ball ESPECIALLY when the STAR player is guarding them -- also after 8 years I would like to think I can sniff out the flops or 2 and sometimes they might sneak by me but they are usually in block charge scenarios

IMO no player will flop here. Also if a player does get poked and lets say I do not call it and the other team steals and scores and player is in pain so I stop the game to see if hes ok -- if his eye is watery like you know what -- I would tell the coach I messed up no problem -- but honest reactions are easy to read IMO

JRUT -- I agree - i am not saying call all pokes in the eye -- I am saying there are instances where it is necessary and you might not have actually seen the POKE

JRut, you're kinda going off in left-field on this one. We're talking about a play where B1 swipes at the ball and the resulting reaction makes it obvious that A1 was poked in the eye.

So a swipe means there is contact? I think I have a right to take my position considering the OP made it clear you did not see the contact. You cannot call something you assume just because the player reacts. I would only call a foul when I see something, not just what I "think" I see. It is a free country. You can call what you want. Many times players fake things to get a call and the example that was made about a baseball game are a perfect example.

Peace

Jeff, let me ask you. You ever actually seen the finger contact the eye on this? I think it's almost impossible to catch with the human eye in regular speed. If I don't see the swipe, or if I don't see the hand near the face, I'm not going to call it. But if I see the hand swipe near the face and the ball handler reacts, I'm likely to have a foul.

OS, what are you protecting the player from? What if he fakes the injury to get out of a 5 second call? If you don't know for sure that he's hurt, why stop the game?

Yes I have been poked in the eye or near the eye before. And yes I have called someone being poked in the eye when I have seen it. Now what is your point? The issue is whether we call something that we see. If we do not see something, we should not be in the habit of just calling something because it looks bad or because a player falls. If a player falls to the floor do you make a call because a player was around them? What about if a player is hit in the groin area? Do you just call something because you think something happen? If I missed something like this, it will not be the first time and it definitely will not be the last. I know I am not going to call something just because as many have suggest. Once again, this is why we get paid the big bucks to make the tough decisions.

Peace

That's not the point. You said that it was was a "good no-call". It was actually a missed foul call. There's a big difference between those two. A missed foul call is <b>never</b> a good no-call.

I have several friends who are college coaches. I am going to tell them to teach a method where as an offensive player - they go down and get the call - when contact could have happened. If taught properly and practiced, a team can get this call, based on what the very high level Div. I official says.

Perfectly said!

NevadaRef said it best ... I feel this is the best way to handle this situation. However, if I see the inadvertent poke - I call the foul.

Just like if A1 is attempting a shot and B1 goes for the block and inadvertently makes body contact - Foul there. Of course, if I see it. If he missed the shot badly and crashes to the floor and I missed it because my view was blocked, I don't just assume he must have been fould and blow the whistle.

ok if it was missed do you compound it by calling it on who you think caused the foul?

I don't personally, and I also personally don't recommend doing so.

If I am sure of who caused the foul, I will call it.

We're not talking about baseball or freedom in America, we're talking about a basketball play.

Have you really told multiple coaches these exact words or was that the thought that went through your head?

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by mj
I had a situation last night in my game and am looking for input. I am C and have A1 with the ball right in front of me defended by B1. B1 swats at the ball and apparently pokes A1 in the eye which I do not see. A1 cradles the ball with one arm and covers his eye with his other hand then starts to pivot on his pivot foot in pain.

Do you call a late foul? Call an officials timeout for his injury? Play on? What are your thoughts?
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I agree, Rich.
If I am watching a closely defended ballhandler and see a handswipe near the face, I will need to see the reflexive reaction of the head snapping away in order to justify the immediate foul. Absent that response, I will stop play and allow the player to recover or to be replaced.

Well, there you have it folks. If mick says it, it's right.

Feel free. My guess is that they will laugh in your face. The number of times that they will have to implement your "method" will be so few that it's not worth the time spent to teach it. How many times a season do you see a kid get poked in the eye in the last 4 minutes of a tight ballgame? Maybe once. Certainly not more than twice.

So for an average of one possession per season, they're going to practice a "play" for which the only purpose is to fool the ref into calling a foul, and which at the same time completely stops their offensive set if it doesn't get called?

No kid is going to intentionally put himself at a that big a disadvantage while he has the ball at the end of a tight ballgame.

If you don't like the advice of a guy who had a magnificent officiating career, that's fine. But if it worked for him, I gotta think it's worth listening to.

And, just for good measure. . .

If you don't want to listen to me (understandable, since you don't know me from Adam's dog), and you don't want to listen to an NCAA tournament official, that's fine.

But bear in mind that you just completely agreed with Old School. 'Nuff said.

I agree with both of you. Had I seen the swipe (not sure how I missed it actually) and contact, I would've had an immediate foul. Like I said previously, I stopped play to allow the player to recover. The coach did take him out after the stoppage of play.

Error on the side of caution with the players.

Just remember, if you stop the clock, the player must be replaced. He's not staying in the game unless the coach buys a timeout to keep him in.

My point is that the finger flying through the air and giving a quick poke to the eye is such small and fast moving thing that I don't know that I'm actually capable of seeing it. I see the swipe, I see the hand near the face, and I see the instinctive reaction of the poked player. I call the foul. If I wait until I actually see the finger in the eye for the split second it's in there, I'm never going to be able to make this call, and JohnnyrRingo's friends are going to teach their kids to start poking eyes while guarding the ballhandler.

Reference, please.

Citation, please.

If the coach doesn't come out onto the court, he can stay in. 3-3-5.

Old School doesn't need a reference. He/She just uses whatever seems right and fair to Old School. Rules Schmules.

I refuse to remember that.

:rolleyes: <i></i>

Oh geeze Bob, okay, I will look it up. give me a minute.

Off the top, I thought that if you stopped the clock for injury, the player must be replaced. I will research it.

This is the exact reason that they print up those books.

At a game last night, a coach, who had recently been digging through the rule book, said to us, "They really have a bunch of rules in there, don't they?"

What pro, college and high school leagues do you work? I mean specific state and league names? I know you probably won't tell us but come on! With enough experience to do pro or college leagues you have to have come across a situation where a player was hurt, but the coach didn't come out and the player stayed in the game.

This is why you have no respect and are basically a laughing stock. This is simple and you are really going to look it up. Amazing!

LOLOLOL!!!

btw, so you are working this year, mick? I started thinking you had gone off to have quadruple bypass surgery without telling anyone like another cretin we all know and love to hate...

Hey, cmon, tom, she's starting to back down and act like a real ref. Give her some space!

For someone in the sixth or seventh year of reading the rules book, who's been reffing for a long time (15 years or so), I really would expect you to know this rule. I've never seen a single ref get this one wrong, and I've never heard a single coach get it wrong, and I've never heard a single fan get it wrong. It's basic.

Yup, getting close to irascible. ALthough I think you need a few more lessons.

This is wrong too.

Ha !

But with Rich, you knew what he meant. :)

Really? Explain why Coach.

No, I'm going to look it up because Bob asked me too, and btw, off the top, I was very close. NFHS Rule 3.3.5 says if I beckon the coach, and/or the coach comes on to the floor. I'm not going to beat myself up on this one. Since the player could be faking, guess what, he's coming out in my games or the coach can buy a timeout to keep in. If the player is really injured, then everything will take it's normal course. However, if the player is faking and I stop the clock thinking he/she is really hurt. Price you pay for trying to trick the referee. Either call a timeout which is what I just did for you, or player takes a seat and can come back on the next dead whistle. Lesson, don't try to trick the referee if you're not really hurt.

Do whatever you want or what makes since to you. I know what I'm going to do.

I had one situation where a player was hit in the groin and down he went. The play went all the way down to the other end and the injured player remained on the floor. They passed the ball around and finally scored and then I blasted the whistle to kill the play. I beckon for the coach and he would not come out. The player still laying there on the court. Now I know why the coach wouldn't come out. However, this player laid on the ground for a very long time, and I'm sorry, coach or no coach, he's coming out the game. You could be sued for negligence for allowing a player to continue to play in a situation like this. Again, I'm not going there. I'm not going to be the doctor to say he is or isn't. If I send him to the bench and the coach sends him back in, that's on the coach.

Give me a sub coach!
Peace

Because even if the coach doesn't come out, the player may still have to be replaced; for example, if the trainer is beckoned.

Because a manager or trainer may come out instead of the coach. The player must then be replaced.

But contrary to what Old School thinks, the player does not have to be replaced, simply because he/she thinks so.

Does the make "since," Old School? :p

Being wrong, refusing to admit it, and then rationalizing it doesn't make any "since" at all.

I was with Rich...I wasn't reading into the sitch that the trainer could be coming out. Sorry.

How many timeouts do we have per game? NONE, so I'm not calling a timeout!

You also didn't answer my questions, which doesn't surprise me. If you have been officiating long enough to do pro and college basketball you should know the rule and the procedure for protecting a player that is injured. The exact rule reference shouldn't matter since your statement was dead wrong! Just because a player is possibly injured, and the clock is stopped, does not mean the player must come out of the game. You said otherwise.

True, I'm just telling you what I would do in the case where I thought the player was faking.

I agree with OS and if the coach is beckoned the player is to ber eplaced regardless if he comes out or not.

Can you answer my questions?

Tell me where you work, what leagues and what levels. Please don't give me to a link where you gave a vague answer to this. You are really suspect (IMO) right now and some straight forward answers could help your credibility. Unless you have something to hide.;)

The only time I can think of a coach not coming on the floor after he/she was beckoned would be if the player was getting up and was OK to continue. I would probably let the player stay if they seemed OK. Are you saying that when you beckon the coach it is a done deal regardless? Also, did anyone say they had beckoned the coach and the coach didn't come on the floor or are you throwing that in now? I don't want to go back and look at all the posts.

Oh, for God's sake. WHACK! :D

I don't typically beckon anyone -- if the player's hurt and I stop the game the coach/trainer can consider himself beckoned. I don't get involved with injured players unless I have a coach that NEEDS to come out, but WON'T.

But unlike Old School, I know the rule :)

Depends. If it's a premature beckon and the coach doesn't come out, I'm likely going to change my mind and not require the player leave or the team burn a timeout. Consider it an inadvertant beckon.

By rule 3-3 art. 5 nfhs...A player who as been injured to the extent that the coach or any other bench personnel is BECKONED and/or comes onto the court shall be directed to leave the game, unless a time-out is requested by and granted to, his/her team and the situation can be corrected by the end of the time-out

If I think the player is faking an injury, it's a technical foul.

Or he can go sit down. Sub!!!

Good: You looked it up.

Good: You learned something.

Bad: You refuse to apply it and think your orignal answer was "close." If your answer was "close" then so are most of the inane comments yelled by the fans.

Picky: Rules are referred to with a dash (e.g., 3-3-5); cases are referred to with dots (e.e.g, 3.3.5A) And, that's not "my" standard, it's in the case book.

I ask if the player if he can continue. If he says yes we continue on. If he says no/or nothing and continues to act injured I beckon the coach and he either sits or they burn a timeout

I'm not doing this without any rules basis. You do what you want.