Thanks for the lesson Bob. However, you are incorrect when you assume I refuse to apply it. I might bend it a little if I thought the player was faking being poked in the eye, thus causing me to put air in the whistle. I also don't care what a fan thinks.

Good day!

What's the penalty for faking being fouled? Hint: It's not that the player must leave the game.

Scrapper,

What I was trying to say is that I agree (when I said perfectly said) with what NevadaRef said in one of the first posts on this topic.

As for telling coaches to practice this method that was meant as a little fun. But, if you don't think some coaches and players would go that far to draw a foul - think again.

Citation for an "inadvertent beckon?" :D

Maybe, but it's our job to know the difference.

No, but I would rather just make him sit down then enforce a technical. Game management. Sends the same message without the heavy payload of a technical. I don't think an assigner is going to get to bent out of shape for this one.

Play Ball!

No, it doesn't send the same message. Faking an injury is a technical foul for a reason. But, like I said, you call it how you want.

Are you going to answer the question?

Peace

I missed the question amidst all the rhetoric. Could you please repeat it for me.

Why not look back at the post and find out. The fact that you did not answer the question when you posted a response tells me everything I need to know anyway. You cannot justify your position logically. Go ahead and call something that did not happen if you like or what you think happen. I will not do that no matter how many times you post it on the internet.

Peace

About a month ago you said you had 4 years experience. How did you all of a sudden gain 4 more years?

Nevermind, I found it (I think). I fail to see what this has to do with the topic at hand. I know I never made any references to "all swipes". I made reference to a particular scenario.

Since this is America and we are all free, I could exercise my right not to answer your question. Or I could be a smart-a$$ and say it's a regional thing so I can only answer for how we do things in Virginia. ;)

BTW, how many times did I post it on the Internet? My count has it at 1.

4 years of high school -- 4 years before that were youth, middle school, and rec leagues.

That's definite knowledge, too. :D

The answer to Bob's question was not "No." You basically ignored the question just like you ignored my questions. I think it is about time for some of these imposter officials to lay their cards on the table or shut up! You are making officials who want to learn something read and/or scroll through your BS and you can't even answer simple questions. Be strong and answer the questions without being evasive. Again, that tells something about you as a so called official.

Was any training or reading of the rulebook involved during your first four years?

This is the exact quote from the OPer.

"I am C and have A1 with the ball right in front of me defended by B1. B1 swats at the ball and apparently pokes A1 in the eye which I do not see."

Unlike many people here I would not be offended or upset by those words. If you have worked with people across the country like I have at camps, you will realize that people do not have the same philosophies from one state to another or even one level to another. The only people that seemed to have a problem with the "regional thing" are the people that are on this board. Oh well, I digress.

Well if you actually read many posts on this topic, you would see that you were not the only person talking about making a call based on something they actually saw, but what they think they saw.

Peace

You are wise beyond your years.

If there's no appreciable delay, just get the game going.

and here was my exact response: "I've had this situation before. If you realize it fast enough you can come with a late whistle for a foul. Still, some will say if you don't actually see the foul you can't call it.

The 2 or 3 times I've come with a late foul whistle no one has ever complained."

I fail to see any cohersive tone to my response.


Luckily I am blessed to work for a supervisor who is a Big Ten/Final Four official, so I have been exposed to the Midwest flavor also. :)

LOL before you beckon you determine by asking the player or observing and making a decision as to the ability of the player to continue. If the player can not immediately continue and the case book says not more than a few seconds the player should be replaced and if you beckon the player has to be removed. So give it a second to see if the players ok and if not you beckon. Better to error on the side of safety.

Wrong. An assignor would take your azz off his availabilty list if you pulled crap like that. Assignors aren't real happy when their officials start to make up their own rules. That's because, unlike Rec leagues, assignors usually deal with coaches that understand rules that pertain to <b>them</b>. And when coaches get pissed off because some official who doesn't know the basic rules screws them, then they call the assignor and say real nasty things to him- like "WTF are you doing sending me that moron?". And the assignor is stuck for an answer because the coach has every damn right in the world to be mad. Noooooooo, assignors don't like to get phone calls like that. Soooooo, if they get more than 1 or 2 about a certain official, that official may return to the rec leagues from whence he came- never to be sighted again in meaningful games.

no training for the first 4 years -- just went by what i saw in nba and college and from plaing basketball. so any complicated scenarious were f`ed up

This is using way too much common sense (or since) and the almighty Old School might not like this way of doing things. :D

LOL :rolleyes:

Instead of having your head stuck in the rule book (it is important) you should use some common sense (since for Old School). You are not always going to follow step 1, step 2, etc. For instance if a player goes down hard and hits their head, I'm waiving the coach in instantly as I'm blowing the whistle. Sure that is totally on the other end of the spectrum from JR's last post, but that is life in officiating. The rulebook is the guideline, but sometimes common sense must prevail and we should do what is right for the game. Don't get so caught up in trying to apply every rule word by word to every situation.

IMHO I would say you have 4 years experience or 4 years as a "trained" official.

You are really stuck on this regional stuff (which you brought up btw). Unless your friend works directly in the Midwest I do not know what this proves. It is different working major college basketball than working HS. Major college conferences are more alike than HS ball would be from one place to another. There are different expectations in my state depending one what conference you are working or where you are working the game.

Peace

His "friend" works for the Big Ten but lives on the east coast.

Rut, I have a question that is totally off topic and I hope not too general for an answer. I have lived on the west coast (sort of) and the east coast. Although many (on the west coast) would like to deny it, there is a different brand of basketball played between the coasts. Out west more fouls are called that would be considered "game interupters" (JR :D) on the east coast. More emphasis is placed on playing through contact on the east coast. My question is this, how would you say the midwest compares to this? I'm originally from the midwest, but I have no experience as an official in that part of the country and this conversation just made me curious.

TG I'm not going to get personal and say you don't use common sense and that maybe you should get your head into the rule book more. I am just stating the rule. Officiating is a lot of common sense. The rules are the rules and we are there to enforce the rules. I understand what JR was saying but thank you for the lecture. I have been doing this for a while at the V level and I continue to learn even after 18yrs. I know of no one who follows every rule to the letter but it is there in the case book.

If a coach is sharp enough to read the situation and see that it was minor and his player can continue, then if he hasn't come on the floor I'm not gonna make him remove his player. If there's any doubt in my mind about the player's condition though, he will be going out.

It's almost the same as when you get a little shoving match out there and a coach quickly comes out on the floor to break it up. Technically, he's supposed to be gone with a flagrant technical foul. In practise imo, if he's out there to help the situation, then I <b>beckoned</b> him, even though nobody might have seen that beckon.

One is an inadvertant beckon and one is a phantom beckon....and both are useful tools imo.

Tom, this is a very interesting question, and I'd like to see it in a separate thread. Would taht be okay?

I brought up regional in the smart-a$$ version of my answers to your original question to me. I even put a little "winky" icon at the end of the sentence. That would be you who brought up the "If you have worked with people across the country like I have at camps" reference to make a point.

So, which is it? In order to play the regional card, do I need to be exposed to people from all over the country or do I need to be exposed to people who work directly in the Midwest? I'm confused now. :confused:

But I like how you ignored the this part of my last post since (sense) it rendered your original assertion about me moot.

Is this the part where I'm supposed to say "Your response tells me everything I need to know anyway."?

Sure would!

It isn't anything personal, I'm just a little confrontational today. Since (sense) you have that much experience you can understand where I'm coming from. Many people may or may not use this forum as a tool. When a veteran official says something without being clear about it, a young official could go off an become too rigid with their application of the rules. Additionally, we some posters who are sort of tools themselves which confuses the matter even more. At the end of the day, I want to do what is right for the game and making sure the correct message is sent is very important to me.

Crap like what? Crap like a player faked being foul and I sent him to the bench. As the official for the game. If I say give me a sub because I feel in my mind that the player is injured. I am within my rights as an official to declare a player unfit to play at anytime in the game. YOU GOT THAT JR, AT ANYTIME!!!! You can kiss my azz, cause guess what, he's going to the bench. If the coach and players says he's not injured because he faked the injury. Well in my mind, he's injured and must now leave the game. I'm not a doctor so I'm not going there. I'm not so stupid as to send someone to the bench for no reason. You are stupid to assume that I would.

This is just plain dumb, you need to rethink this statement. Any official I send to the game is #1 qualified to be there, so I'm insulted by this statement as the assigner. #2, sh!t happens, no official is perfect. I'm sure worst things have happen to you in a game than a player being asked to sit out for one play. In fact, you know what! The official gave you a break. He could have enforced a technical here if the player was faking. We teach our officials to always side on the side of caution when it comes to injuries. If we're not sure, best to have them sit down. I think this is more or so, how the conversation will go, but then again, I'm also sure there are assigners that think like you. Just looking for a reason to throw an official under the bus.

Good job proving that point.

Okay, look, OS, I can't defend you when you start going off. Whatever works for you in your league at your situation is great, but you gotta realize that most of us don't do things the way you're saying. If you'd just acknowledge that perhaps there's a bigger world out there than your league and your way of doing things, this whole conversation would be a lot better for everyone -- including you!

Juulie, you had a spelling error above. You misspelled "rec league" as "league." Just trying to be helpful.

now, now...

OS, if I purposefully set aside a rule because it makes me feel better, or it's easier, then I expect to find myself underneath that bus. I expect to be defended on judgment calls, but not on missing the rules. And, if I'm ever approached about a rule I've pooched, I'll cop to it and learn (done it). But good Lord, even if the player is injured, you give them a moment to gather themselves and continue to play. Happens all the time. Half the time the coach is sending a sub to the bench by the time you hit the whistle anyway, but there are lots of times when you blow your whistle for an injury that you should immediately put the ball back in play.

You have no rules basis for forcing the sub when the player and coach say the player is ready to play immediately. None whatsoever.

:D Hey, it's your theory; and it's the most charitable one I've seen. ;)

I cannot speak for the entire Midwest. I can only speak for the parts that I have worked. I started officiating in West Central Illinois where most of the schools are smaller and the talent is not of a D1 level. I moved to the Chicago land area back in 1999 and started working games full time up here in 2000-2001. Where I started in West Central Illinois it is common place for little contact to be called a foul. That is what is normally expected when I work games in this area and what is expected from teams that come from that area. When I started working in Chicago, I had to adjust big time. The talent was better across the board and some of the countries best players come from this area or the surrounding suburbs. Up here they expect much more contact and want you to wait. Also there are many more college officials and officials that work at the D1 level or have pro backgrounds or aspirations. In other words what you watch in the Big Ten is a very good example of what is expected. They expect a lot of contact in certain circumstances and it is not uncommon to be praised for a no-call on a lot of contact. When I read this board it is very clear the expectations are very different around the country. And in conversations I had with officials over the country when I attended a D1 camp this summer, it was clear that the expectations of HS officials varied big time. I even worked a tournament this Thanksgiving where we had teams from Arizona, Texas, Indiana and Illinois and the complaints about calls were vastly different from the teams. The 2 Texas teams hardly complained about the calls we did not make, one of the coaches apologized for complaining about a couple of calls when he realized we were consistent. The Arizona coach did nothing but complain and the Indiana coach complained the most of all. So there were obviously difference in expectations from the different teams and areas they were from. Now why that is I do not completely know. I can just come to a reasonable conclusion the officials do not call the same things in all these places.

Peace

I've said it once or twice.

Whatever...!!!!

Why are you cutting this poster as much slack as you are? None is deserved.

Well, I wasn't at first. In fact, at one point, I asked the mods to XXX her. But then she started to show signs of reasoning and discussing, and I wanted to encourage that. But I'm afraid it didn't last. Too bad. It was actually interesting and fun for a little while.

Nuff said.
Thanks for playing. :)