Tip in at the buzzer

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Chicken.

I would put 1.1 seconds back on the clock and we would inbound the ball again.

Tony, I agree with you that we have a to inbound the ball again with 1.1 seconds on the clock, but where would you inbound the ball?

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline. Team A, should not be penalized because of the Timer's mistake. Making Team A inbound the ball from the original throw-in would penalize them for the Timer's mistake.

This play is not different from the other plays of the same nature that has been discussed over the last couple of years, such as the one I posted last month that took place in Michigan.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tony, I agree with you that we have a to inbound the ball again with 1.1 seconds on the clock, but where would you inbound the ball?

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline.

MTD,
The description in the OP is a little confusing. I took the sequence to be:
1. Thrower releases the ball
2. The ball bounces around on the ring
3. The players are jumping up, but unable to touch the ball.
4. The ball comes off the front of the ring and is falling down towards A2 when the horn sounds. The horn sounded PRIOR to A2 touching the ball.
5. A2 catches the ball and quickly tosses it into the basket.


If that is the proper sequence, then 4-4-3 applies and the POI is the spot of the original throw-in. The NFHS made ball location clear in an interp this year.

2006-07 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations
SITUATION 2: Post players A5 and B5 are called for a double personal foul while the ball is in the air on a pass from A1 in A's backcourt to A2 in A's frontcourt. RULING: Team A had control of the ball when the double foul occurred, and thus play will be resumed at the point of interruption. Team A will have a designated spot throw-in in A's backcourt nearest to where A1 was last in contact with the ball. (4-4-3; 4-36; 6-4-3g; 7-5-9)


So, if A2 had caught the ball before the horn sounded, but had been unable to release the ball on a try for goal prior to the horn sounding, then I would agree with you that the POI throw-in should be on the end line.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

MTD,
The description in the OP is a little confusing. I took the sequence to be:
1. Thrower releases the ball
2. The ball bounces around on the ring
3. The players are jumping up, but unable to touch the ball.
4. The ball comes off the front of the ring and is falling down towards A2 when the horn sounds. The horn sounded PRIOR to A2 touching the ball.
5. A2 catches the ball and quickly tosses it into the basket.


If that is the proper sequence, then 4-4-3 applies and the POI is the spot of the original throw-in.

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off? What rule can you apply to put a new throw-in on the endline.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off?

Oooo, right!! Throw-in!! I was trying to be clever and point out that touching the backboard is like touching the floor. But touching the floor wouldn't matter here, would it? Oops!!

[FishinRef]

What difference would it make if the throw-in wasn't touched by a player on the floor before the horn went off? What rule can you apply to put a new throw-in on the endline.

I agree 100%. This ball goes back to the original throw-in spot with 1.1 back on the clock. Everything that happened after the horn sounded, unless flagrant, is meaningless.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

If the ball touches the backboard, instead of only the ring, then would the throw-in spot be on the endline?

Actually, that's a good question. It made me realize that my earlier answer was right, but for the wrong reason. (BTW, I now know that MTD's answer is also clearly incorrect.)

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Oooo, right!! Throw-in!! I was trying to be clever and point out that touching the backboard is like touching the floor. But touching the floor wouldn't matter here, would it? Oops!!

That's why. I was using the wrong rule to justify my decision.
I was mistakenly thinking of the ball location requirement in 4-36-2a.
This part of the POI rule and thus the ball location rule 4-4-3 do NOT apply to this play because there is another rule which takes precedence. That rule is 4-36-2b. This is the correct rule to use.

Since the horn which caused the stoppage (and this particular horn does because it signals the expiration of time in a quarter, albeit incorrectly) went off prior to any player touching the ball all of this activity was during the throw-in. Therefore, we resume with the game with this throw-in despite the ball contacting the floor or the backboard and perhaps even the ring as none of those events end the throw-in. (Due to the wording of 4-4-5 and 4-13-1+2, there is room for debate about the ring, but I believe that it counts.)

If this play had taken place under slightly different circumstances then 4-4-3 and 4-36-2a may well be the correct rules to use. For example, if there were six seconds on the clock and Team B shoots a FT which bounces around on the ring and the timer incorrectly starts the clock at this point. When A1 rebounds the miss under the basket and throws a long pass down court, it would matter if the ball touches another player, the floor, the backboard, or maybe even the ring down there prior to the horn erroneously sounding. If it does then that is the location of the POI throw-in. However, if the horn sounds before the passed ball touches anything, then the throw-in would be from the nearest spot to where A1 was when he threw the pass.

Thanks for making me think this one out better, Scrapper/JR.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If this play had taken place under slightly different circumstances then 4-4-3 and 4-36-2a may well be the correct rules to use. For example, if there were six seconds on the clock and Team B shoots a FT which bounces around on the ring and the timer incorrectly starts the clock at this point. When A1 rebounds the miss under the basket and throws a long pass down court, it would matter if the ball touches another player, the floor, the backboard, or maybe even the ring down there prior to the horn erroneously sounding. If it does then that is the location of the POI throw-in. However, if the horn sounds before the passed ball touches anything, then the throw-in would be from the nearest spot to where A1 was when he threw the pass.

Oh? Even if you don't have definite knowledge as to how much time ran off the clock before it was touched up court? Got a rules citation to back that up?

Iow, I don't agree with you either.

If you put 6 seconds back on the clock, then the ball goes where it was at when there was 6 seconds on the clock. That's happens to be the closest spot to where A1 was when he rebounded the missed FT. If you put less than 6 seconds on the clock, then you had better have definite information as to how much time to take off. If you don't, there's no rule that I'm aware of that will allow you to administer a new and completely different throw-in up court to where the ball is at the re-adjusted time.

[Texas Aggie]

I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline.

Using what rule? If the ball is not touched, the clock never starts. If the ball goes in the basket or out of bounds prior to being touched, its a violation with the throw in at the original spot.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This is not a do over, so I would inbound the ball on Team A's endline. Team A, should not be penalized because of the Timer's mistake. Making Team A inbound the ball from the original throw-in would penalize them for the Timer's mistake.

Heckuva idea. Don't penalize team A. Let's penalize team B instead by giving team A better floor position when there's no rule extant saying you can do so. That's a much better idea than just repeating the play and giving neither team an advantage that can't be justified by anything in the rules. Yup, heckuva idea.

If it isn't a "do-over", then what is it, Mark? Rules citation with your answer, please. If you can find a rule that will let you issue a brand new and different throw-in at a spot that you get to choose, I'll be ....well... surprised.

[mplagrow]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Heckuva idea. Don't penalize team A. Let's penalize team B instead by giving team A better floor position when there's no rule extant saying you can do so. That's a much better idea than just repeating the play and giving neither team an advantage that can't be justified by anything in the rules. Yup, heckuva idea.

If it isn't a "do-over", then what is it, Mark? Rules citation with your answer, please.

I gotta agree with JR here, but leave it to a dinosaur to use a word like "extant" in proper context!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by mplagrow

but leave it to a dinosaur to use a word like "extant" in proper context!

I'm not just another pretty face, y'know.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

mplagrow:

Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why isn't this play a do over? The answer is NO, and here is why:

1) Team A had the placed at its disposal for a designated spot stop-clocked throw-in. The spot of the throw-in for this play was on the sideline in Team A's front court.

2) By rule, Team A is to pass the ball such that it cross the sideline boundary and then touches or is touched by a player that is either inbounds or out-of-bounds. Team A did exactly that, as described in the play.

3) The fact that the Timer did not start the game clock correctly is not a factor in this play. The rules clearly state that the sounding of the game clock horn does not necessarily cause the ball to become dead or that play ceases. Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

4) Whether or not the game officials did or did not sound their whistles when the game clock horn sounded Team A DID complete the throw-in as required per the rules. a) If the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded then the ball became dead with their whistle. b) If the game officials did not sound their whistles until after A2 released the ball that subsequently went through the basket, then the ball did not become dead until after the top of the ball cleared the bottom of the net.

5) Therefore, by rule, if (4a) occured then Team A get the ball for a throw-in on its own endline nearest where A2 caught the A1's throw-in. If (4b) occured then Team B get the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline in its backcourt. In either case there are 1.1 second on the clock for either throw-in.

See the following 2006-07 NFHS Rules Book and Casebook:

RULES:
R2-S5-A5
R2-S12-A3, A6, and A7 (This reference may or may not be germane to this play but they are listed among the Timer’s duties.)
R5-S8 (I include this entire section because it may or may not be germane to this play, but it lists the Timer’s responsibilities regarding stopping the game clock.)
R5-S9-A1 and A4
R5-S10-A1 and A2

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.9.3
5.9.4
5.10.1 Situations A, C(a, b c, and d), and D
5.10.2


See the following 2005-06 NFHS Casebook:

CASEBOOK PLAYS:
5.10.1 Situation B (as well as the Comment)


MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Why isn't this play a do over?

3) The fact that the Timer did not start the game clock correctly is not a factor in this play. The rules clearly state that the sounding of the game clock horn does not necessarily cause the ball to become dead or that play ceases. Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

And this is where it all breaks down, Mark. Your statement above is completely wrong, by rule.
1) If the Timer not stopping the game correctly isn't a factor, then there's no applicable rule that will allow you to put time back on the clock to have another throw-in.
2) The rules clearly do state that the horn causes the ball to become dead at the end of a period. Rules 6-7-6 and 5-6-2 to be exact. There are exceptions to these rules, provided the ball is in the air on a try or tap when the horn goes. Unfortunately, for you, the ball wasn't in the air on a try or tap when the horn went off in this particular situation. The ball was in the air on a throw-in when the horn went off.

Everything that you so laboriously cited now goes down the crapper, Mark. None of it is even close to being applicable. All bafflegab iow.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

mplagrow:

Let me pose a rhetorical question: Why isn't this play a do over? The answer is NO, and here is why:

I've never seen such a lenghty answer to a "rhetorical question" and I've never seen the question "Why ..." answered, "No."

Furthermore, the descripton of the play does not tell us whether or not the game officials sounded their whistles when the game clock horn sounded.

And what if the whistle sounded before A2 touched the ball? Then, the location is still the original throw-in spot.