Overtime Chaos
 

BV game, 3-man crew, 1st overtime. Preparing for jump to start OT. R is waiting outside center circle, U1 & U2 are in position for jump. Team A has six players on the floor ready for the toss. Team B coach is screaming for a technical foul against Team A. Team A coach gets A6 off the floor prior to Referee entering center circle for the toss. The question is, at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?

This is where a
 

Little preventive officiating is helpful. It should be someones job to make sure there are only five from each team. I am making eye contact with my partner prior to stepping in and tossing the ball. Once the ball is made live I have a "T" but I cn't think of to many times where there isn't sone responsibility by the official for having to many players on the court.

The R intentionally waited on entering for the toss so the coach of Team A would wake up. This just added fuel to Team B Coach.

Way after this point. If I catch it before the jump ball is completed, no T. B coach needs to quit screaming, or he'll coach overtime from his seat.

Ball is not live until the leaves the had of the R on the toss. The reason officials ref at higher levels is because they know how to not only manage game but prevent situations that should not effect the game. Just because a coach is yelling does not make him right. The crew did a good job.

Gotta agree with the previous posters. NO WAY am I giving a T for this. I look at Team A coach and say, "Coach, someone has to come off." End of discussion. Team B Coach can yell all he wants. My response, "Coach, that's enough." Now, to avoid this in the future . . .


While looking at the players on the floor, point your index finger toward ONE of the players and say ONE. Then proceed to point your index finger at a different player ON THE SAME TEAM, and say TWO. Repeat process for players 3, 4, and 5. THEN . . . repeat the SAME process for the opposing team's players (1-5). You should never have more than FIVE (5). IF you do, calmly ask the coach of the "almost offending" team to kindly remove one of his/her players. All-in-all should take about 7-10 seconds, but will save a lot of time later when you have to administer that Technical Foul that the Team B coach is yelling about. PREVENTATIVE OFFICIATING!

We took care of business by PREVENTATIVE OFFICIATING. The Referee held the toss so the the sixth man could get off the court. By the way, we can count to ONE but it is not using the index finger. I hope I didn't over simplify that for you.

It is a small thing, but I've heard many officials say NOT to point and count. It doesn't make that much of a difference, but is it really that hard to count to five without pointing?

Yeah, I don't get the point & count thing either.

It's not like you're putting a little check mark on their heads when you point & count 'em.

Sometimes I point, discretely, as I count. But hey, I recently stopped counting out loud.

How am I "supposed" to take this? If it is an "F"-you, then shame on you for being so disrespectful. My post was certainly not intended to offend you, but obviously it has, and again, shame on you for your response. You could have handled this MUCH better. If I am taking it the wrong way, then please tell me so, so that I in turn may apoglize to you. Regardless, your response is considerably UNPROFESSIONAL! Additionally, my post wasn't directed SOLELY toward you, as a great many OTHER officials use this board. And maybe, just maybe, there is one or two who haven't mastered greatness quite like yourself, and they may find the information helpful in the future so that they too may become perfect.

And no, it was over-simplified.

But as for not pointing and counting, I guess all those D1 & D2 evaluators and assignors really don't know anything after all. All the evaluators and assignors I work with say, POINT AND COUNT so you are certain. I guess I shouldn't listen to the guys and gals who are giving me those games. Does an official HAVE to point and count, NO. Does it help when you have 10-12 players mingling around one another, YES!

Whenever I see a team come out with six, I go over to the coach and say loudly, "Coach - new rule this year - you only get five players." It usually gets a laugh and I've never had a problem with the other coach. Of course, you have to catch it before the ball becomes live.

bigdogrunnin, I was offended greatly by your initial reply. If it wasn't intended to be degrading or demeaning, then I apologize sincerely for over reacting. We are all fellow Officials in the trenches every night. We get enough crap from everyone else without giving it to one another. For my comments, I retract, and I am sorry.

My original question is "at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?" If you have notified the coach, and stated that somebody has to go, which we did. At what point during the game is this a T?

1. When R enters the circle?
2. When R releases the toss?
3. When ball is tapped?
4. When possession is gained by either team?

As already answered above, when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

If preventative doesn't work, then this event is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. I would expect the other two on the crew to note that six are still on from one team. Once I toss the ball and it's touched immediately a whistle should sound and indicate six on the floor. We then shoot two and take the ball at 1/2 court. Once the ball is inbound, we then set the arrow. Due to possession not being established at the toss, it is pointed away from the team that inbounds the ball. (I think that's right)

You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today? ;)

Correct. Since "participating" isn't specifically defined, and there isn't a case book play specifically on point, a reasonable interp of the rule is that the 5 team members are participating when the ball becomes live.

Interestingly, in football, the (NCAA) rule for the often used phrase, "too many men on the field" is either a 15 yard illegal participation foul if they are actually participating, or a 5 yard illegal substitution foul if they are busting *ss off the field (and don't quite make it!). Years ago, the fed rules stated in the comments to the rules (used to be at the end of the rules; now included in each rule, but slimmed down from what I recall) something to the effect of "minor technical (meaning letter of the law rather than rule 10 specific) infractions should be ignored if they are inadvertent and have no bearing on the game." Does anyone believe that if a player realizes he's the sixth man on the floor, leaves during the toss but doesn't quite make it all the way off, and this doesn't affect the opponent at all, that we should just ignore it? In this situation, the officials had full knowledge of the player leaving.

Yup, I knew that when I posted it.

Mark's got it right. If I am the R I will say something to the captain..."captain...do you have 5?" One of my U's in a three man has got to get me thumbs up or I'm not putting it up. If I am one of the U's --I will simply tell the coach --"count your players". He knows what I am talking about. At any rate, there isn't a way in the world that I am starting an OT with a T unless it is absolutely necessary.

Like I said earlier, the counting thing is small, but it does NOT make it easier - for me at least - to point and count.

What is up with all the subtle hints and beating around the bush? What is wrong with just telling the coach he/she has too many players on the court and one needs to go to the bench? I will use the indirect method if someone can give me a good reason to. Otherwise, there are way too many other things to worry about than being funny or subtle when it comes to too many players on the court. Also, if there are six players on the court it is everyone's (on the crew) fault.

I'm with Tom on this one. Count the players, if there are too many then tell the coach he/she needs to pull one off and then get on with the OT period.

The start of O.T. is the same as the start of the game. Which means that just as in the pre-game player count, the O.T . player count goes to U-1(home), and U-2(visitors). This should be covered by the "R" in the pregame meeting, and we know the R doesn't toss til he gets a thumbs up from U-2 and U-1(who also confirms that the table is good to go prior to thumbs up), so eye contack is immeasurable here.

Thank you for the apology, and NO I was NOT trying to be demeaning at all. In fact, my attempt at a little humor obviously went terribly wrong, and I apologize as well.

As for what to do . . . I go with #2. The ball becomes LIVE when the referee releases his toss, but to start a game, quarter, or overtime, this should never happen. There are 2-3 officials on the court, and if they are all doing their job (which you and your crew were), then everyone should have a quick count, get the OK's, and off we go.

Couple of things here. #1. If there are too many players on the court, and play begins, it is the referees fault period. Charge the technical to the offending team but we as a crew blew it. This should never happen and it's a little harder in football where you have to count up 11 players. #2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming. To do it before, he just let us know (before play became live) that we got too many, and yes, I will hold the game up and get the extra player off the court, no violation, thank you coach!

There was actually 3 things wrong here. Referees didn't notice too many players on the court, the opposing coach making everyone aware before the ball is in play and finally one of the coaches sending too many players out to start the OT. Wow! That was an interesting overtime.

First off, no way do you throw a T on this. There's plenty of time to sort things out before the ball goes live. As far as pointing, I was taught never to point while you count. I have heard officials get dinged for pointing and counting at camps. Personally, I think when you point while you count you look a little unsure of the game and also you call attention to the fact that you are counting. If you don't point, you can get your players counted without anyone even knowing you're doing it.

Just to clarify........ Referees DID notice too many players, Referees did advise players and coach. Referee held the toss until A6 got off the floor.

My Point Exactly.

My reasoning for this post was to verify that we didn't miss something by Not Calling the T.

Hey Bigdawg, which D1 & D2 conferences do you work that make you point as you count?

No, sounds like you nailed it to me. Good job!

bigdogrunin I got a chuckle out of this :D , to me it was clear he was trying to be funny. Next time use :D or the which ever icon that fits the situation this helps clarify intended effect.

I had a situation where a team came out of the huddle after a TO and had 6 on the floor. I counted the players ( don't remeber if i pointed or not :D ) and came up with 6. I get the offending coaches attention and tell him he has 6 on the floor. The other coach comes up loudly complaining "You can't do that, you can't tell him he has 6 on the floor, your cheating!!!!" My response was "Your out of the box coach and that is cheating." He looks down then back up, smiles and returns to the bench, I tell him on the way back to my position that I try to avoid T's if i can.

I hadn't thought about this before, but pointing while counting could have some unintended consequences. They all know we do it, but it may set the expectation that if a 6-player T happens, it was the officials' fault.

Just my $0.02
 

This is just one more item on my "I don't get it" list. I have always thought "don't point while you count" thing was one of those "it's right because I say it's right" things. What possible difference could it make whether you can be seen counting players? We are expected to count players, why not be seen doing what we're supposed to do? We are required count seconds visibly, so counting visibly isn't inherently a bad thing. So either there's a very good reason that I've never been told, or it started with some influential person's personal preference and has become a monkies and firehoses thing.

As for it being the official's fault, we get blamed either way. If they see us counting and we end up with six, they'll think official can't count or that he knew but deliberately didn't say anything. If they don't see him count, and end up with six, they think he didn't do his job. The only way to "win" is to catch this and prevent it.

Bingo.

Yes, the officials should <b>always</b> try to prevent it, if possible. Still.....sh!t will happen. That's rule #11. But, the bottom line is that having 6 players on the floor is <b>NEVER, EVER</b> the official's fault. It's <b>always</b> the <b>coach's</b> fault.

It seems that some people seem to forget that little point.

Nah. I get up real close to them and put a little dent in each of their foreheads.:D

Do you think the players would mind if we circle the OLD dents so we don't get confused from an earlier count?:D :D :D :D

Just take different colored pens.

When we're meeting with the captains at the center circle, I call each player over 1 at a time and use "Dent Wizard" to get the old ones out. Sets a good tone for the night that way.:cool:

I've been using the Dent Wizard for a couple of years now. But last night the batteries were dead. So we got some Bondo and a sledge hammer from the auto shop and banged out the dents the old fashioned way. :D

c-o-n-t-a-c-t.

Actually, sometimes it's the fault of the player who went in the game when he wasn't told to by the coach. You can't ALWAYS hang it on the coach. That's also why this is only a Team Technical, and is not even charged as an indirect on the head coach.

Yeah - having to take your shoes off all the time must be a real pain. :rolleyes:

Yup, gotta agree with that. I still don't think that anyone should ever try to hang it on the official. Sure, we try to get it , but if we don't, oh well.....

Hold up big time! If you put the ball in play and there's 6 instead of 5. We miss that one. At a camp couple years ago. I felt so proud when I got that technical, 6 guys on the court, until the evaluator came over to me and said. Now, whose fault is it really? I don't think I won any points for calling that, in fact, I know I didn't.

Whose fault is it REALLY? It's the Player's/Coach's.
Yeah, we missed it too, but it's REALLY their fault for sending in too many players, or for entering the game without the coach's direction to do so, or entering the game and the player they were sent in to replace didn't leave the game.

It's basic, folks. Yeah, we should try to prevent it; but if we don't, we have to call the T. Why? Because it's the coach's responsibility. If it was our fault, they'd make it a correctable error.
Of course, there's never any reason to feel proud of calling this T. Just do it and move on quickly if you weren't able to prevent it. BTW, preventative officiating does not mean ignoring it when it happens.

That goober musta been the stoopidest evaluator in the history of the game then, to say something as dumb as that.

D1 camp?

Nope, 5th grade girls.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle
You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today? ;)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I think that he does it just to iritate me. :)

I think the evaluator was trying to make a point, that we should not put the ball in play until we count, and that since it's 3 of us, you would think that one of us would have caught it. I learned my lesson and now when I'm the guy bringing in the subs, I always hold the inbound, until I have counted them all up, sometimes you got to wait until the dust clears b4 you can count. In just about every case that this has happen after this camp, I can point to an official who got lazy, and didn't do his count.

The other problem we have is some partners don't always look up and check in with you before putting the ball in play. They put the ball in play while my hand is up and I'm still counting. I think in the pregame, you should discuss this and put the responsibility on the person bringing in the subs to do the count and if we're on top of it, this should not happen in the game. Of course the lead can do a count too, b4 putting the ball in play.

What I find that is very pleasing about this is when I do catch it and the coaches don't. I blow my whistle to hold my partner, I walk over to the bench and tell them they got too many on the floor, and they know they would have gotten a technical if I didn't catch it. I win a few points with them and this never hurts as we are going down the stretch.

Yet another reason why you are full of it. Who cares about winning a few points with the coach?

Gee, you would think that being fellow college officials of yours that they would know better than that.

Actually, I think it's more about familiarity with one another. Still, when I work with a different crew, we don't always check one another before putting the ball in play. I'm trying to condition myself to always check with my partners before making the ball live.

Tomegun, is sounds like you have been officiating too long. You have lost the love and respect for the game. If you no longer care about the coaches, no longer care about doing things that can improve your game and the relationship you have with the people you have to work with in the game. You should retire and go do something you like to do. Tis is the season. You should be thinking peace and goodwill to your fellow man. Scrooge!

From m-w.com, the definition of non sequiter.
Main Entry: non se·qui·tur
Pronunciation: 'nän-'se-kw&-t&r also -"tur
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, it does not follow
1 : an inference that does not follow from the premises; specifically : a fallacy resulting from a simple conversion of a universal affirmative proposition or from the transposition of a condition and its consequent
2 : a statement (as a response) that does not follow logically from or is not clearly related to anything previously said

11 is less than 16. You should only have to take off one shoe.

Gee, don't your fellow college officials all follow the standard substitution mechanics as laid out in the CCA manual?:confused: You really think that they would when officiating at the college level.

Don't football officials have to count both teams? That would be 22. I guess only officials with extra toes can work games. That's scary. :rolleyes:

Wait - you could get to 21 without extra toes if you use your, er, never mind. In fact, that's scarier. :eek:

Up at the top of the screen, there's a selection entitled, "User CP". Click on that. Then, scroll down the left side of the screen, under "Control Panel" to the "Miscellaneous" section. Under there you will find a selection entitled, "Buddy / Ignore Lists"...

Uh..............no! I think you should learn how to be a better official and not concern yourself with doing what is popular. If you love this game, as I do, you will think more about what is right and the integrity of officiating and less about what warm cuddlies a coach wants to extend your way. You sound like an official a coach would love to have at home but not on the road. I strive to be an official a coach doesn't mind having at home or on the road. It will probably take you a while to figure that one out.

Quite the opposite sir. If you can allow yourself to think outside the box, I realize that might be a little hard for you traditional types. But what do you think happens when both coaches know and respect you? Daaaa....!!!!

That means one of the coaches is a visitor, just thought I would say that because I know how your one-track, one-way fits all brain works. End result, a better, smoother game for not only you but for your partners as well.

Happy Holidays...

You would think...but the reality is it happens.

Tomegun, one would need to actually be an official before one could learn to become a better official. The preponderance of evidence here suggests that prerequisite has not yet been met.

Didn't read any further, but that was a poor job of managing the game by the R. If he sees 6 on the floor, he holds the game and gets one player off.

How is that different than what was actually done?

He admitted he didn't read any further. Therefore, he doesn't realize how brilliantly the R handled the situation.

What does this mean exactly? Oh, I get it. "Thinking outside the box" is good. "Traditional types" is bad. Wouldn't want to follow those old, traditional rules and mechanics or anything. Much better to think outside the box, right?

Huh?

Ok, please answer these questions (they might look familiar):

Do you actually referee?
What levels do you currently work?
Do you actually own any rule books or manuals, and what level are they?

<font size =-2>Well, crap...I'm not even following my own advice, am I?</font size>

Dollars to a donut that Old School is the Bizarro World alter ego of Jurassic and he sits at his computer typing emails back-and-forth to himself. :D

Did somebody just say something?:confused:

Must be an echo...or somebody on my <b>Ignore</b> list. :D

That's for me to know and you to find out.

Happy Holidays...

Gee, being an assigner also, shouldn't you be trying to train your college officials better?

Yea, yea, I know. Sheesh, I can't even take my own advice.

Sorry, he just answered, so I'm going back in.

Have you seen the commercial with the football player pushing the swing for all the little kids, and they are all sitting there waiting for him to come to them, but the row of kids goes on and on for as long as you can see. That's what it likes trying to train all the officials that needs help. I got to also admit, officials, grown men, are the hardest individuals in the world to train.

Also, how do you train an official who's status is higher than yours?

I'm guessing you run into this problem a lot.

Sigh......

Oh Ye of Little Faith.......

Mr. Old School has already stated his qualifications:

1) He has been an official since 1990. For the first 10 years of his career, he <b>never</b> opened a rulebook. Nope, not once. Didn't need no silly ol' rule books.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...533#post359533

2) Then around the year 2000, he had an ephinany and the sky was the limit after that. He got introduced to Mr. RuleBook and his career skyrocketed. Within about four(4)(IV) years, Mr. Old School had not only become a <b>college</b> official, he was doing college <b>playoff</b> games. Hello, March Madness. Mr. Old School is here!
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...831#post358831

3) And don't forget, he has also become an assignor in his spare time also.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...596#post358596

And, on McGriffs, he has also mentioned his pro basketball officiating career several times too. He's probably just been a little modest since he came over here, but I'm sure that he'll get to it eventually.

So....Mr. Skeptical, don't you think that you owe Mr. Old School a <b>BIG</b> apology for doubting him?

Actually, I was talking about <b>you</b>. Don't take that personally though.

Naw, on second thought, go ahead and take it personally.

Hmmmmm, interesting theory.

Did you notice that Mr. Old School showed up just after Chuck Elias left? And did you also notice the remarkable similarities in grammar, diction and spelling between O.S. and C.E.'s posts? And their knowledge levels are fairly equal too? Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? I'd bet that Old School <b>has</b> to be a BoSox fan too.

I need a bag of popcorn and a Dr. Pepper, this is well worth the price of admission!!!!!

Yeah, so many college officials to train, so little time. All you can do is your best, I guess.

:rolleyes: My kids stopped saying that before they were 10.

Maybe we've already found out.

Look, it's simple. We will continue to hammer your responses until you provide us with specific information to show us you're somehow a creditable source. Otherwise, we will make sure the less-experienced people that frequent this forum don't consider your advice as anything worthwhile. You have shown time and time again that instead of providing specific answers to specific questions, you wrap your replies in vague, non-specific phrases that have nothing to do with the topic, freedom of speech, thinking outside the box, etc., ad nauseum.

Btw, happy holidays.

Nope. I'm not gonna aplogize until I know he's working in the...wait for it...The SEC!

...sniff...sniffle...

You know, it's becoming more obvious over time Old School is a Yankee fan.

I don't get it.

You mis-spelled that. It's spelled YMCA.

When did you become short?

[QUOTE=M&M Guy
You know, it's becoming more obvious over time Old School is a Yankee fan.[/QUOTE]God'll get you for that.

Or me.

:p <font size> </font size>

Well.....I <b>was</b> sitting down.

Where is Bullwinkle and Rocky the Flying Dwarf these days?

So ordered:

http://www.freewebs.com/antiborg6/Dr...er%20Model.jpg http://img.webring.com/r/p/popcorn/logo

You mean these guys?

http://www.mouseplanet.com/more/rock...e-jay_ward.jpg

It's okay, I'm used to it. Fans, players, coaches, assistant coaches, owners, why not referee's too. We're only human.

Top of the season to you too...!!!

They had university cult status back in the day.

Actually, in American football, there is no need to use the feet or the ____ while counting! Here's why:

Associating a number with a player that you've already identified is only so that you don't identify him again as a player. So, you really only need to count to 10, twice. Once you reach the 10th player, you only need to see one more. If there is more than 1 more, then a flag will/could come out. This decision on whether or not to throw a flag arises at one less than the number or legally prescribed simultaneous participants per team. ;)

In Canadian football, there are 12 per team, so we need to count to 11, twice. :D

<b>Owners?</b>

You get hassled by <b>owners</b> during your games?

I take it that these must be the pro games that you do. How do you deal with <b>owners</b> hassling you during a game? What do you recommend as the best way to deal with them?

I love it when my point's proven for me!

Ok, I'm done.

Man, you are crazy! What's worse is, Old School will probably answer you.

Old School, if I give you my address will you send me a tape of you working a game? I don't want to see a 5th grade girls game either. :D

If you think coaches can't tell when an official is full of BS then you are mistaken. They don't want an official kissing their A$$ just like most people.

OK, a thread this fun needs this as well:

http://img.fark.com/images/squirrel.jpg

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

DAM YOU!!!!!

I'm sending yo the bill to clean the ginger ale off my keyboard and screen. And man does that hurt coming through your nose!!!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

It's about character. People can recognize a good quality person, whether he's/she's an official, a player, or a coach. Officials with good character are trusted and sought after.

As far as coaches not wanting an official to kiss their azz. I disagree with that.

Happy Holidays

How about the <b>owners</b>? Do you have to kiss their azz too?

Old School, you remind me of "Rocky" (the first movie) You appear to be strong in your beliefs, but in the end your getting the crap kicked out of yourself and your going to end up losing this fight.

Yep. Sometimes we can even spot these characteristics, or their absence, over an internet board.
Real officials with good character aren't that rare.