Tennessee/Texas 5sec. call

[obie1]

On a throw in situation should the official blow his whistle on the hand signal of the 5th sec. or just after?

[Adam]

What difference does it make? Saw the play, it was a great call.
To answer your question, the violation occurs as soon as the count hits 5; not shortly after.

[JRutledge]

It does not make any difference. The ball is already dead before the whistle is blown anyway.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by obie1

On a throw in situation should the official blow his whistle on the hand signal of the 5th sec. or just after?

As others have said when the whistle is blown doesn't matter, the ball becomes dead when the violation occurs. However, strictly speaking you are right that the violation occurs just after the 5th second is consumed since the rules states "more than." Thus the official should not be blowing the whistle right at the count of five, since a violation hasn't yet been committed.

From the 2006-07 NCAA rulesbook:

Rule 6

Section 5. Dead Ball

Art. 1.

The ball shall become dead or remain dead when:

...

g. Any floor violation (Rules 9-3 through 9-13) occurs, there is basket
interference or goaltending (Rule 9-16) or there is a free-throw
violation by the free-thrower’s team (Rule 9-1).

Rule 9

Section 5. Throw-in

Art. 1.

The thrower-in shall not:
...

d. Consume more than five seconds from the time the throw-in starts
until the ball is released.

[bigdogrunnin]

Saw the play, he made the right call, and it was a GREAT call! I don't know of many officials who would have made that call, and wrong though it is, a lot would have reset their count when the new thrower stepped out of bounds. I am a BIG U. of TEXAS fan, and it was a good game (even though Texas' youth and inexperience showed up with 15 minutes to go in the second half). I thought the officials did a good job.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

Saw the play, he made the right call, and it was a GREAT call! I don't know of many officials who would have made that call, and wrong though it is, a lot would have reset their count when the new thrower stepped out of bounds. I am a BIG U. of TEXAS fan, and it was a good game (even though Texas' youth and inexperience showed up with 15 minutes to go in the second half). I thought the officials did a good job.

For those of us who didn't see the game could you describe what took place on this play and when in the game it occurred?
Thanks.

[Adam]

I'm not sure which play bigdogrunnin is talking about, but with Tennessee had just scored on the huge three (about 30 feet away) to take a one point lead. Texas brought the ball to half court and called time-out. On the ensuing throw-in, TN played outstanding defense and TX couldn't get the ball in. You can see the official's count, and right after he hits 5, TX player attempts to call time-out; too late. The official raises his hand and extends his fingers (presumably with a whistle blowing, but you can't hear it.)

[bigdogrunnin]

The play I was talking about was after a made basket by Tennessee later in the second half. Texas player is going to inbound the ball and has it in his hands. Official starts count. The Texas player decides he isn't going to inbound the ball and places is back on the floor, the official is at two in his 5-second count. A second Texas player comes and grabs the ball, and the official is at 3. 4. 5. TWEET! 5-second violation on the throw in.

What I meant, is I know a lot of officials that will reset their 5-second count when the second player obtains the ball. I thought the official did a great job in this instance. Hope that helps.

[Adam]

I missed that one. The announcers made a comment that made me think maybe they'd already done it once earlier; now it makes sense. You're right that a lot of newer refs would have restarted their count; but a college ref should know better, especially at D1. The one I saw was with about 18 seconds left in regulation.

[oc]

I'd like to hear people's opinion on the game tying basket by Texas with 1 second left in regulation. Looked like a PC foul to me. (The official had a no call).

[Adam]

I thought the ball was released before contact. Even with a foul, the basket would have counted. I also thought maybe the defender was flopping before contact, but I didn't have a good angle.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by obie1

On a throw in situation should the official blow his whistle on the hand signal of the 5th sec. or just after?

I've always used the just after, but the count is in my head and not necessary my arm movement. When I reach five in my head and the arm comes back to my chest (5-1/2), at that point, I determine where the ball is. If it's still in the hand at that precise moment, I got a 5 second violation, even if the thrower is in the process of releasing it. The act of me checking and then deciding I got a violation, then put air in the whistle, a split-second or a second could have expired, and the thrower could have passed the ball in. Guess what, it was in her hands at the time I hit 5 and checked, violation! Fans didn't like my call, oh well!

Originally Posted by oc

I'd like to hear people's opinion on the game tying basket by Texas with 1 second left in regulation. Looked like a PC foul to me. (The official had a no call).

I'm not sure if this was the same game I saw, but I think it was. I think the defender may have been too deep in the lane. Even thought it's not written, they don't want you standing in the lane taking a charge, there is a point where you can be too deep, and it's either a block or a no-call.

With that being said, at that point in the game, good no call. The offensive player did not try to drive thru his shot, he pulled up for the jumper, incidental contact, again, good no-call. The referees let the players decide. Good game to watch!

Happy Holidays

[Adam]

I doubt it had anything to do with being too deep in the lane. both players were 10 feet away from the hoop. I still thought it was a good call.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by oc

I'd like to hear people's opinion on the game tying basket by Texas with 1 second left in regulation. Looked like a PC foul to me. (The official had a no call).

Looked like a charge from the camera angle I saw. That said, Snaqwells was right - once the ball is released in NCAA-M, you can't have a player control foul. Had the foul been called, the shot would have counted, and the fouled player would have shot free throws (I'm pretty sure TN was in the double bonus by that point).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Old School

I've always used the just after, but the count is in my head and not necessary my arm movement.

Sorry, not right.
2-7-9 . . . Silently and visibly counting seconds to administer the throw-in (7-6), free-throw (8-4; 9-1-3), backcourt (9-8) and closely-guarded (9-10) rules.

This is important because of all the video taping of games these days. When a coach sends a copy of the tape to the league office of you swinging your arm only four times, but calling a five second violation, you're in trouble. When a coach sends one that shows you swinging your arm six times, but still NOT calling a five second violation, you're screwed!

Your arm swings are your official count.