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It's dangerous to have a black and white philosophy on "and 1's", or anything else for that matter.
To me a made basket is only a small part of advantage/disadvantage in these situations: What if the game is getting close to that line and not calling pretty good contact, just because the ball went in, keeps it on that slide into the crapper? I've seen plenty of cases where a routine lay up turns into a Sportscenter highlight because of contact, IMO, that is gaining an advantage and the made shot means nothing. This call is like any other call and it requires getting a feel for what needs to be an and 1, and what can be passed on, I just wouldn't use the shot going in as my measuring stick. |
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nothing more need be said !!!! |
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I'm just going to add that if the defender hits the shooter near the elbow, the foul should be called regardless of whether the basket is made or not. Any shot made after the forearm is hit near the elbow is a miracle, and the defender should not be permitted to continue this defensive tactic without consequence. This is an attempt to cheat, pure and simple, and should not be condoned. Even the slightest of contact in this area can make a shot almost impossible to sink.
No rules reference, just my thoughts on the matter from someone who has witnessed coaches teach this reprehensible move. "Don't worry, the refs won't call it!"
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I couldn't afford a cool signature, so I just got this one. |
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I don't think you can wait to see if the shot goes in or not before you decide to call a foul or not (too much time elapses). I think the better way to judge the severity of contact is whether the offensive player continues the shooting motion relatively "freely" - that is to say: did he play thru the contact or did the contact significantly restrict the shooting motion?
You can't assume the contact made the shooter miss the shot (after all plenty of shots are missed when there is no contact at all). |
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New ref here, only doing youth BB for now, HS later. I've been trolling around this board for a couple of weeks and I'm a little confused (actually a lot confused depending on the rule) about some things, including advantage/disadvantage. Specifically relating to this thread, I'm wondering why an official would choose to ignore a shooting foul if the basket was made and yet call the same foul if the basket was not made.
As I understand some of the officials that have posted, they wouldn't call the foul because it didn't place the offended player at a disadvantage and/or didn't effect the outcome of the shot; and that the determination as to disadvantage or effect is solely based upon whether or not the ball ultimately went into the basket. So, this is really my ultimate question. Should the basis upon which the official makes the decision to call (or not call) the foul be: 1. Whether of not the shooter was placed at a perceived disadvantage because of the foul; or 2. Whether or not the shooter achieved his intended goal (in this case a basket) in spite of the foul, whether or not the foul put the player at a disadvantage? ….. or should the foul be called because it was a violation of the rules and it really isn’t possible to truly determine whether or not it caused a disadvantage. |
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"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith |
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"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith |
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I'm having a hard time following all this. A strong player can follow through and finish a shot with two people hanging on his arm sometimes. A player can miss an easy shot while being baaaarely bumped. (or not bumped at all)
In a nutshell, I don't see that the foul and whether the shot is good or not have anything to do with each other.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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Simply put: sometimes 1, sometimes 2, sometimes neither. IMO this is all stuff you shouldn't worry all that much about putting in your games right now, concentrate on understanding the rules as written, making solid calls all the time, communicating well with your partner and maintaining good position.
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What I think will get you in trouble is a late whistle on an And-1. If the ball hangs on the rim or bounces around and you're waiting to see if it goes down and it rolls out, and you put air in the whistle, defense gets the rebound. Guaranteed the coach is gonna have some choice words for you and the crew on that one. A good example I can share with you is related to the men (not college). I had a player come down the paint hard the other day, go up and slam it home while the defense went up hard to block. Major collision at the basket (I'm lead and I was right underneath it), dunk successful, play ball. He misses dunk, we're shooting two. Where I think I draw the difference here is the intent of the defense. Did the defense go to block (or play) the ball or they just tried to foul the player? Any contact to the head or face will be a foul at any level. Anything less, my judgement. This same play in college is a foul to me. Hope this helps... |
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So you're saying the team foul count is a factor in your next foul call? And you're also saying that the reason you shouldn't wait to see if the shot goes in is because it will make a coach mad? This should really open a floodgate.
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I swear, Gus, you'd argue with a possum. It'd be easier than arguing with you, Woodrow. Lonesome Dove |
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2) At what college level that you are working is that a foul, JMO? D1, D2, D3, NAIA, JC? I'm just wondering if you call it that way in your D1 games as well as games at the lower college levels. |
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