Penalize Insanity 2 !

[Adam]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

I agree 100% - If Assistant Coach is going to act like a fan he can go sit with them.

He'll have to do it the next game, though, 'cause he isn't watching this one unless it's televised.

[LarryS]

One of my personal goals for this season is to give no more than three Ts to coaches (I gave seven last season). However, I set that goal becuase I am trying to improve my skills at working and communicating with coaches. I felt part of the problem was I was "too sensitive", did not take the opportunties presented to try to smooth things during a game and did not understand that many times the comments/complaints from a coach are the result of his frustration with his team...he has been on them from the start, they aren't listening and it is simply a matter of guilt be association...I'm on the same court as the Bozo's from his school.

That said...this coach needed whacking real fast.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by LarryS

One of my personal goals for this season is to give no more than three Ts to coaches (I gave seven last season). However, I set that goal becuase I am trying to improve my skills at working and communicating with coaches. I felt part of the problem was I was "too sensitive", did not take the opportunties presented to try to smooth things during a game and did not understand that many times the comments/complaints from a coach are the result of his frustration with his team...he has been on them from the start, they aren't listening and it is simply a matter of guilt be association...I'm on the same court as the Bozo's from his school.

That said...this coach needed whacking real fast.

I think that you're setting a completely artificial goal that has got absolutely nothing to do with good game management, Larry. As officials, we react to the actions of coaches, players, etc. You're going to run into situations sometimes where you could be Sister Theresa and the coach is still gonna go off on you. Those situations could certainly come up more than three times a year also, and if they do, it's usually not because of something that you have done or not done as an official. Yes, there certainly are good game-management techniques that you can use to posibly cut down down on unsporting behavior. No, those techniques sureashell will not eliminate unsporting behavior. Some coaches and players need you to show them when to stop, and a technical foul sometimes is the only way to get that point across to them.

Calling technical fouls fouls does not mean that you're failing as an official, contrary to what some testicularly-challenged officials might believe. It simply means that someone is acting in an unsporting fashion, and you, as an official, are not going to allow that to continue. No more, no less. The technical foul penalty is in the rule book for a reason, and that reason is to deter and stop unsporting behavior.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that you're setting a completely artificial goal that has got absolutely nothing to do with good game management, Larry. As officials, we react to the actions of coaches, players, etc. You're going to run into situations sometimes where you could be Sister Theresa and the coach is still gonna go off on you. Those situations could certainly come up more than three times a year also, and if they do, it's usually not because of something that you have done or not done as an official. Yes, there certainly are good game-management techniques that you can use to posibly cut down down on unsporting behavior. No, those techniques sureashell will not eliminate unsporting behavior. Some coaches and players need you to show them when to stop, and a technical foul sometimes is the only way to get that point across to them.

Calling technical fouls fouls does not mean that you're failing as an official, contrary to what some testicularly-challenged officials might believe. It simply means that someone is acting in an unsporting fashion, and you, as an official, are not going to allow that to continue. No more, no less. The technical foul penalty is in the rule book for a reason, and that reason is to deter and stop unsporting behavior.

I agree with you, but it is at least a measurable goal and not simply "Do a better job working with coaches"....how do you measure "better"? If a coach starts "getting under my collar" I remember my goal and try to look for a way to calm the situation...if not, I do what needs to be done.

BTW, if this last Saturday is an indication as to how the coaches are going to act the rest of the season I will past three Ts by the end of the week...one coach asked me to "Call and GD foul", but he didn't appreciate the one I called ...Partner and I both tried calming down the coach in the very next game...middle of the 4th of a blowout my partner calls a foul at L, coach yells "For Pete's sake, let them play" and slams his clipboard against the back of the chair...figured if I had to stay for the rest of that slop, so did he...but he was going to do it sitting down.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by LarryS

I agree with you, but it is at least a measurable goal and not simply "Do a better job working with coaches"....how do you measure "better"? If a coach starts "getting under my collar" I remember my goal and try to look for a way to calm the situation...if not, I do what needs to be done.

No, I personally don't think that the number of "T"s that you have to call in a season is in any way at all a good measure of any official's ability to control/manage a game. It's more of a measure of how many idiot coaches/players that you happen to run into in your games that year. Some of these clowns make it a part of their coaching/playing stategy to see if they can gain an extra edge by working the officials from the git-go. Not allowing them to gain that edge doesn't mean that you're automatically a failure at managing a game properly imo. That was my point.

I know that you weren't saying anything like that really, but I also know that some officials posting here do have that kind of philosophy.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

No, I personally don't think that the number of "T"s that you have to call in a season is in any way at all a good measure of any official's ability to control/manage a game.

I didn't say it was a GOOD measure.

[REFVA]

One of my personal goals for this season is to give no more than three Ts to coaches (I gave seven last season). However, I set that goal becuase I am trying to improve my skills at working and communicating with coaches. I felt part of the problem was I was "too sensitive

So how do you gauge when to give the 3 T's are warranted and which is more severe which would warrant a T or not. If someone diserves a T and it should be given. I would do a pulse of myself if i'm giving out too many T's. if all is well then it's not me. Whack Him!

[OHBBREF]

That is one of the points I am trying to make.
My gooal is to give not more than 3 "T's" this year.
What if the first three coaches you see all call you a flamin a$$ H@LE
are you done for the year?

Trying to call less "T's" is an admirable goal I agree but you have to deal with the situation that is in front of you on ALL CALLS and make the appropriate Call for the situation.

That is what this job is about the other 99% of the calls you make why should it be different for a "T"?????

[rockyroad]

Up until about 10 years ago I would use the number of T's I called as one measure of the "sucess" of my season. If I only called one or two, I thought I had had a good season...ran into a local coach at a three-day training for teachers one summer and spent quite a bit of time talking/visiting with him. At lunch on the last day, he asked me flat-out why I took so much sh!t from coaches, including him...I was shocked, and told him my thinking. He told me that wasn't the way the other coaches saw it, or saw me...Spent quite a bit of time over the next few months rethinking my position...gave quite a few T's over the next two seasons. Haven't had any problems since then...now, if I tell a coach to "Stop", they usually stop - partly because of my communication skills, and partly because they know what will come next. So far the only T this year was a brand new coach...and when she kept going after my partner after being warned and got her T, the assistant - who has been there for a few years - could clearly be heard saying "I told you he would stick you."

It's just another call that needs to be made when warranted...call it and move on.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think that you're setting a completely artificial goal that has got absolutely nothing to do with good game management, Larry. As officials, we react to the actions of coaches, players, etc. You're going to run into situations sometimes where you could be Sister Theresa and the coach is still gonna go off on you. Those situations could certainly come up more than three times a year also, and if they do, it's usually not because of something that you have done or not done as an official. Yes, there certainly are good game-management techniques that you can use to posibly cut down down on unsporting behavior. No, those techniques sureashell will not eliminate unsporting behavior. Some coaches and players need you to show them when to stop, and a technical foul sometimes is the only way to get that point across to them.

Calling technical fouls fouls does not mean that you're failing as an official, contrary to what some testicularly-challenged officials might believe. It simply means that someone is acting in an unsporting fashion, and you, as an official, are not going to allow that to continue. No more, no less. The technical foul penalty is in the rule book for a reason, and that reason is to deter and stop unsporting behavior.

We agree.

I work LOTS of baseball. In 2004 I had 12 ejections. In 2005 I had 2 ejections. Does that mean I'm six times better at communication in 2005?

Probably not, I had 6 ejections in 2006. Two during a beanball war, a college player calling me a homer, you know, the usual.

I am working at being the kinder and gentler Rich: The "kinder and gentler" Rich

However, I would've tossed this assistant.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

We agree.

I work LOTS of baseball. In 2004 I had 12 ejections. In 2005 I had 2 ejections. Does that mean I'm six times better at communication in 2005?

Probably not, I had 6 ejections in 2006. Two during a beanball war, a college player calling me a homer, you know, the usual.

I am working at being the kinder and gentler Rich: The "kinder and gentler" Rich

However, I would've tossed this assistant.

Jmo, but I honestly feel that you just do what you think is gonna work best for that particular time in that particular game. There's no magic instructional manual that teaches you that you should do this in this particular situation- always. An identical act might mean a quiet warning in one game, but it also might mean an immediate "T" in another game with no warning. You just go with whatever feels right to you at that time. And then you don't second-guess yourself.

You know what I'm talking about, Rich....obviously

[OHBBREF]

It is just taking care of business at the moment - certain things will go down differently on different nights - at different moments in the same game.

Example: Last night Girls HSV first quarter 1:50 to play red 23 losses the ball to white 40 who holds the ball above her head - red 23 steps forward toward white 23 - jumps into and swings arm to slap the ball away gets some arm, blow the whistle on the foul pase and watch the action - (on previous foul calls red 23 has whined) - Red 23 looks right at me and says.." you have got to be kidding me!" WHACK! Fouls four and five!
I kind of felt bad for a second - but she just asked me for it - commit an obvious foul then whine about it right to my face and it is your fourth in last 6 minutes! - It did make my life miserable the rest of the night since she was the only ball handler the red team had.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jmo, but I honestly feel that you just do what you think is gonna work best for that particular time in that particular game. There's no magic instructional manual that teaches you that you should do this in this particular situation- always. An identical act might mean a quiet warning in one game, but it also might mean an immediate "T" in another game with no warning. You just go with whatever feels right to you at that time. And then you don't second-guess yourself.

You know what I'm talking about, Rich....obviously

My only regrets have been NOT whacking someone who needs it. A good example (from football) is the coach last season who came onto the field to argue a spearing/disqualification call we made on one of his star players. I gave him a 15-yard USC penalty, but I should've thrown a second flag and tossed him a few seconds later. Didn't want to look like I had it out for him, though, so I didn't. He deserved it and I didn't pull the trigger when I should've.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by LarryS

One of my personal goals for this season is to give no more than three Ts to coaches (I gave seven last season). However, I set that goal becuase I am trying to improve my skills at working and communicating with coaches. I felt part of the problem was I was "too sensitive", did not take the opportunties presented to try to smooth things during a game and did not understand that many times the comments/complaints from a coach are the result of his frustration with his team...he has been on them from the start, they aren't listening and it is simply a matter of guilt be association...I'm on the same court as the Bozo's from his school.

That said...this coach needed whacking real fast.

I guess I don't understand setting a goal like that. If they're there, call em. If they're not, don"t. What if you've already given out 3 and a coach throws a towel on the floor, will you give him extra rope so you don't go over your goal? What if in your last game of this season, you've only given out 1 all year? Do you still try to meet your goal? You can work on you communication and still rack up a number of T's.

[LarryS]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

I guess I don't understand setting a goal like that. If they're there, call em. If they're not, don"t. What if you've already given out 3 and a coach throws a towel on the floor, will you give him extra rope so you don't go over your goal? What if in your last game of this season, you've only given out 1 all year? Do you still try to meet your goal? You can work on you communication and still rack up a number of T's.

Either I am not explaining myself well or some are not reading carefully...or a mixture of the two.

The arbitrary number is easy for me to remember. If a coach starts in on us during a game, it reminds me to communicate. Maybe we are ingnoring questions or not really answering them, only giving quick and "canned" responses. Those are necessary during the action, but when there is time am I really trying to difuse the situation or just letting it fester. Believe me, if a coach insist on being an idiot I will stick him/her.

I totally understand the problems with having a slow trigger and do not want to go to the other extreme...I don't want coaches, fellow officials or (more importantly) the assignment secretary to look at me and think "He refuses to communicate well...he'd rather stick you and move on."

A good example (even though it was a player) was last Friday night. Late in the first quarter I called a foul on #10 in white who immediately let out an almost primal yell. I gave him a stare and told him to "cool it" because I need to work on keeping thing under control without always resorting to the whistle. I noticed an odd look from him but kept moving. A few minutes later, my partner called a foul on the same kid and he did the same thing...only this time he was not facing the calling official. When my partner tagged him with his third foul just before the half, there was another yell. I was standing near the coach and asked "What's with him?" Coach replied that the kid had been doing that since grade school...it was a release mechanism he used to keep from getting frustrated. I quick trigger would have saddled that kid with a T and put him in foul trouble early on...but he should probably learn to do that internally and not out loud.