Pregame melee

[jalons]

First varsity boys game of the season -

R goes across the court at 13:30 to check with the table on the books. After some discussion, U1 and myself go across the floor to meet the coaches and begin the captains/coaches meeting. R informs us there is no scorebook for the home team. R is now franctically asking the scorer to locate the book. Nobody seems to know where it is. The home team is warming up but the neither the head coach or assistant is anywhere to be found at this time. The head coach had wandered off (he is also the athletic director) and the assistant had not been on the court yet.

After shaking hands with the visiting coach in an effort to return to our normal pregame routine, we notice the home coach is standing in the doorway, as far away from the table as possible, talking to someone. By now the clock has ticked down to 9:00 minutes. R informs the visitng coach that we are going to start the game with an administrative technical as U1 and myself head back to the other side of the court to observe the pregame warmup (and wait for the home coach to return as he had disappeared through the doorway).

Not 30 seconds later (about the 8:00 mark), a player from the visiting team jumps up, grabs the rim, pulls it down, and lets it snap back into place. After explaining the consequences of the player's action to the player, we make it across the court again to explain to the home coach (who had returned to the gym) that 1. he is receiving an indirect technical foul for failing to provided his line-up and starters in the proper timeframe and 2. that his team will also shoot two free throws because of the direct technical foul to the player for grasping the rim during pregame.

After this, R informs the visiting coach of his player's action and we are ready for the coaches/captain's meeting around the 3:00 mark.

Here is how we handled the start of the game:

-The visiting team shot two free throws for the administrative technical.
-The home team then shot two free throws for the player technical.

-Home coach received an indirect technical foul. (We failed to give them a team foul, however.)
-Visiting player #23 received a direct technical foul and the visiting coach received an indirect technical foul. We did count this foul towards the team count.

We put the ball in play with a jump ball.

We are curious as the opinions of others if they had been in our situation. The director of officials in our state told us the home team should have inbounded the ball to start the game with the arrow set to the visiting team. He did understand what we were thinking with the jump ball though. We also talked to two assignors for leagues we work and they both thought how we handled it was correct. Any thoughts?

[IREFU2]

There should have been a team foul recorded for the pre game grasping of the rim. The coach on the team the grasps the rim looses his box too.

[All_Heart]

If this was college then you would start the game with a jump ball. (POI)

In high school this is a false double technical and you administer in the order that they occur. Home team gets throw-in at division line.

The visiting coach should have been seat belted the rest of the game. (If you have the coaching box in your state)

[jdw3018]

Home coach should not have been assessed an indirect. Should have been charged to home team, counting on home team's team-foul count.

Visiting coach gets indirect, player gets direct, coach loses box, and counts toward player's 5 fouls, 2 technicals, and team's foul count.

As for starting play, it appears this falls under the "penalize in order they occur" philosophy, and therefore, home should have been awarded the ball to start the game.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Home coach should not have been assessed an indirect. Should have been charged to home team, counting on home team's team-foul count.

Visiting coach gets indirect, player gets direct, coach loses box, and counts toward player's 5 fouls, 2 technicals, and team's foul count.

As for starting play, it appears this falls under the "penalize in order they occur" philosophy, and therefore, home should have been awarded the ball to start the game.

This one gets my vote!

[Ed Maeder]

For an administrative tech there is no indirect on the coach. Home coach gets nothing but a foul towards team-foul count.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Home coach should not have been assessed an indirect. Should have been charged to home team, counting on home team's team-foul count.

Visiting coach gets indirect, player gets direct, coach loses box, and counts toward player's 5 fouls, 2 technicals, and team's foul count.

As for starting play, it appears this falls under the "penalize in order they occur" philosophy, and therefore, home should have been awarded the ball to start the game.

For the calls that were made, this is the correct administration in an NFHS game.

However, I have to question why the home team was charged with an administrative technical foul in the first place. There is no requirement that the team roster actually be in the scorebook at the ten minute mark. All that the rule says is that the team must supply the scorer with the roster by that time. If both teams put a roster on the table, then each of them fulfilled the requirement. If neither team did this, then by rule you should be charging a T to both teams, not just the home team.

The fact that there is no scorebook at this time is nothing to panic about.
Furthermore, while the scorebook is required to remain at the table "throughout the game," there is no penalty listed, if it doesn't. So you can't charge a T for the home team having the book show up late.
Also, I'm not even sure that ten minutes prior to the scheduled tipoff falls under that phrase.

[jalons]

We realized the indirect technical foul to the home coach was incorrect after the game when we looked in the book. We also learned that the foul is counted towards the team foul count. Two mistakes and the game hasn't started yet.

Is there a justification to filing this under the "order the fouls occur in" philosophy, with regards to how to begin the game? My thought process at the time was that the game hadn't begun, so this is still the same dead-ball period, although the two acts were definitely separate and one definitely happened after the other.

As I read false double fouls (4-19-9), there have to be fouls by both teams (which there was), the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first (which I assume happened here because the game clock hadn't started). The fouls were not against each other, so this has to be my situation.

The definition of Point of Interruption (4-36) says...double technical...., so the false double technical causes the ball to be put in play under the "order the fouls occur" philosophy.

Did I answer my own question?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by jalons

We realized the indirect technical foul to the home coach was incorrect after the game when we looked in the book. We also learned that the foul is counted towards the team foul count. Two mistakes and the game hasn't started yet.

Is there a justification to filing this under the "order the fouls occur in" philosophy, with regards to how to begin the game? My thought process at the time was that the game hadn't begun, so this is still the same dead-ball period, although the two acts were definitely separate and one definitely happened after the other.

As I read false double fouls (4-19-9), there have to be fouls by both teams (which there was), the second of which occurs before the clock is started following the first (which I assume happened here because the game clock hadn't started). The fouls were not against each other, so this has to be my situation.

The definition of Point of Interruption (4-36) says...double technical...., so the false double technical causes the ball to be put in play under the "order the fouls occur" philosophy.

Did I answer my own question?

Yep. All of that is correct. Just think of what you learned from that game!

[jalons]

Supplying the scorer with the names, numbers, and starting lineup has always been presented to me as meaning that the information has to be in the scorebook by the 10 minute mark.

In our case that evening, the visiting scorebook (with their lineup) was the only paperwork at the table. The home team's lineup didn't show up until the assistant coach brought their scorebook out at the 4:30 mark. So in that instance, the penalty was correct for violating 10-1.

If the coach marks his starters on a piece of paper with the lineup and leaves that at the table before the 10:00 mark, that would satisfy this requirement?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by jalons

If the coach marks his starters on a piece of paper with the lineup and leaves that at the table before the 10:00 mark, that would satisfy this requirement?

Yes

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Yes

Shouldn't that be:

Yes.?
(The preceeding has been brought to you in rememberance of Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy.)

I originally thought early in my career that the official book had to be filled out by the 10-minute mark. I learned pretty quickly that a less-than-honorable home team scorekeeper could take advantage of going to the restroom at that particular time, then ask for a T to start the game because the lineup wasn't in the book! Thank goodness I had a veteran partner...

[tjones1]

When I'm R, I've just found it a lot easier to start off with a T. That way I don't have to worry about my toss being straight or not. Much, much easier!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tjones1

When I'm R, I've just found it a lot easier to start off with a T. That way I don't have to worry about my toss being straight or not. Much, much easier!

Don't you do that in about 90% of your games?

(Hey, I think I'm getting the hang of this.)

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Shouldn't that be:

Yes.?
(The preceeding has been brought to you in rememberance of Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy.)

Sure