Help Please

[PIAA REF]

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

Thanks

[wfd21]

If the ball is in your primary coverage area and there is a closely guarded sit. why wouldn't you have a count?

[IREFU2]

I know that is very odd to see, but if he is in the paint, there is no need for a 5 second count. Closely guarded can be anywhere in the front court, outside the paint. Of course in the paint, you get a 3 second violation first!

[All_Heart]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

Thanks

NCAA the lead does not have a 5 second count. It is in the mechanics book but I do not have it right now. It also has a diagram that shows the coverage. Trail & Center are the only ones that count 5 seconds.
I'm not so sure about NFHS. JR?

Originally Posted by IREFU2

I know that is very odd to see, but if he is in the paint, there is no need for a 5 second count. Closely guarded can be anywhere in the front court, outside the paint. Of course in the paint, you get a 3 second violation first!

This is incorrect. What if A1 has a closely guarded dribble for 3 seconds outside the paint and then continues into the paint. This would be a 5 second call before the 3 second call.

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

NCAA the lead does not have a 5 second count. It is in the mechanics book but I do not have it right now. It also has a diagram that shows the coverage. Trail & Center are the only ones that count 5 seconds.
I'm not so sure about NFHS. JR?


This is incorrect. What if the A1 has a closely guarded dribble for 3 seconds outside the paint and then continues into the paint. This would be a 5 second call before the 3 second call.

Of course, that would be the case.

[Junker]

I was taught to never have a visual count as the lead and I never count as the lead. If the ball is coming from outside the paint, the T should have the count in most cases. That's just the way it's done in my area.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by All_Heart

NCAA the lead does not have a 5 second count.

That's true for Men, but I'm not sure about Women.

In HS, I believe that the Lead does have the closely guarded count in his/her primary.

[FishinRef]

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

Thanks

I found in the 05-07 NFHS Officials Manual under "Court Coverage - Three Officials" makes reference to "The Center or Trail, who has a 5-second closely guarded count in the front court," (Pg 48).

Also, later in the same chapter, "All officials have the responsibilty to call plays they clearly see away fron their primary areas of responsibilty."

Most of our Association's senior officials say that lead should not be counting for closely guarded during three man mechanics.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by PIAA REF

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

Thanks

Was it 3-man or 2-man?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

That's true for Men, but I'm not sure about Women.

In HS, I believe that the Lead does have the closely guarded count in his/her primary.

In NCAA-W, the L would be responsible for the 5-second count in their primary, mainly because the L's primary extends out to the sideline.

I'm curious as to what other people do in HS as well. I've also been told by many veteran officials that the L never has that count. My question to them as always been, "If the ball is in your primary, then who is supposed to have the count? If the T, for example, has the count, then are you advocating two sets of eyes in your primary?" No one has been able to answer that, other than to say that it's never been an issue.

Granted, it is rarely an issue, given the coverage areas in HS. More often than not, the ball gets knocked away or passed out quickly if it's on the block or in the paint. But if I'm the R, I will mention in the pre-game that the L should have that count if it's in their primary.

[Ref_ Fred]

I had a scrimmage and I was telling another official not to ave a 5-second count as lead (when ball is live) I know I am correct but I cna't find it in the manual anywhere. Can someone give me some direction on where to find it so I can pass it on. He was still unsure when I told him.

If it's in his/her primary why not count?

[Snake~eyes]

Originally Posted by Ref_ Fred

If it's in his/her primary why not count?

Because in 3-person HS mechanics the lead is not suppose to have a 5 second count. In my opinion it is stupid, you are going to have two people watch the ball. I don't understand why the lead cannot have a count.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snake~eyes

Because in 3-person HS mechanics the lead is not suppose to have a 5 second count. In my opinion it is stupid, you are going to have two people watch the ball. I don't understand why the lead cannot have a count.

I agree with you, but I'm still wondering where it is written that the L does not have the count. FishinRef found the reference to "The Center or Trail, who has a 5-second closely guarded count in the front court," (Pg 48). But, again, it doesn't say the L should not have the count.

Maybe we need to have that discussion again about if something is not specifically mentioned, is it allowed, or not allowed?

[Ref_ Fred]

Because in 3-person HS mechanics the lead is not suppose to have a 5 second count. In my opinion it is stupid, you are going to have two people watch the ball. I don't understand why the lead cannot have a count.

In the OP, it did not make any mention of 2 or 3 man. secondly there are areas of the court that the lead is repsonble for that would require a 5 second count.

[PIAA REF]

My origianl post was reguarding 3-man. Sorry if there was any confusion.