Handchecking - FWIW

[mick]

This year's handchecking and forearm stuff caused me some consternation on how I was gonna make the call. FWIW, so far this year, correctly, or not, I have been comfortable making these modifications.

POE - 4A.Hands off :

no hands on dribbler - last year, I allowed some touching/riding with no pressure on the uniform; this year, get the hands off before the second dribble, and never allow hands on a drive.

no displacement of a cutter - last year, I disallowed two-hand pushes and blocks that knocked cutter off stride; this year, one-hand push causing cutter to lose stride works for me.

no measuring (tagging) - last year, I allowed light, one hand on uniform; this year, if opponent has the ball: hands off.

no forearm - last year, I allowed forearm use on post player to hold position; this year, continually resting forearm, or whenever the opponent has the ball, is disallowed.

[rainmaker]

Mick --

It's great for us that you are the "guinea pig" on this matter.. ..


Let us know how it is going by the end of the season, especially if other refs are calling it the way you are, if you are hearing that standard whine "No one else is calling it that way!"

Originally posted by mick
li>no forearm - last year, I allowed forearm use on post player to hold position; this year, continually resting forearm, or whenever the opponent has the ball, is disallowed.

I like all except the post play. If the defender doen't push with the forearm, we've been telling him the forearm is ok for a few seasons, now we're changing it.
Good Luck. Let us know how your changes work.

[Hoosier]

Why would we let a post player use a forearm if we don't let the guards use forearms? If it is a foul 20 feet from the basket, shouldn't the same contact be a foul 3 feet from the basket?

Originally posted by Hoosier
Why would we let a post player use a forearm if we don't let the guards use forearms? If it is a foul 20 feet from the basket, shouldn't the same contact be a foul 3 feet from the basket?

If you see it that way great. I will let the defender use his forearm 20 feet from the basket, just like the post player, if the guard is backing the defender in. As soon as the defender pushes with the forearm it's a foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Suppref

I will let the defender use his forearm 20 feet from the basket, just like the post player, if the guard is backing the defender in. As soon as the defender pushes with the forearm it's a foul. [/B]

Isn't that what he is doing by simply having the forearm up there. If it is not the push back agaist the opponent, he there is no reason to put it there. If the guard is backing him in and the defender uses the forearm to hold him off, I have a defensive foul. You can use the torso to resist the movement but not the arm.

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Isn't that what he is doing by simply having the forearm up there. If it is not the push back agaist the opponent, he there is no reason to put it there. If the guard is backing him in and the defender uses the forearm to hold him off, I have a defensive foul. You can use the torso to resist the movement but not the arm. [/B]

Obviously I'd have to see it because there are different amounts of severity to the contact of "backing in" The defender, in my oppinion can put the fore arm up to protect himself, and most likely his "package". If he then extends that arm it's a foul. Otherwise I'll watch this closely for advantage/disadvantage.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

There is no reason for any post player to put a fore arm on the back of another post player. The reason we are in this difficult position is the for years officials have not called pushing fouls (usually a player control foul) on the offensive post player backs down and/or knocks down the defensive player who has a legal guarding position.

I tell the defensive player only once to keep his/her fore arm off the offensive post player. If he/she does not take it off, it is a foul. If the defensive player tells me that he/she needs it there to keep from being pushed out of position I tell him/her to let me take care of that. The next thing you know, I have pushing (player control) foul on the offensive player.

Once you start calling that foul on the offensive player, the defensive player realizes that he/she does not need to protect themselves from being pushed out of position and the offensive player realizes that he/she just cannot go pushing defensive players out of the way. And then you have good clean post play.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

...
I tell the defensive player only once to keep his/her fore arm off the offensive post player. If he/she does not take it off, it is a foul. If the defensive player tells me that he/she needs it there to keep from being pushed out of position I tell him/her to let me take care of that. The next thing you know, I have pushing (player control) foul on the offensive player.

Does this mean you wait for the offensive post player to
actually get the ball before you "even it up"?

[mick]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Does this mean you wait for the offensive post player to
actually get the ball before you "even it up"?

We don't need to wait for the post to get the ball, but I eagerly await for an Elbowing Signal in the mechanics.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick


... I eagerly await for an Elbowing Signal in the mechanics.
mick

I got one, but I make damn sure I've cleared all the players
before using it.

How did your DH go?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

No, I do not wait for the offensive player to get the ball, but the most common action is when the offensive player gets the ball down low and does the drop step and knocks the defensive player on his/her backside, and that is a player control foul.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
No, I do not wait for the offensive player to get the ball, but the most common action is when the offensive player gets the ball down low and does the drop step and knocks the defensive player on his/her backside, and that is a player control foul.

I hear ya, but often enough there's quite a bit of grappling
down low before the ball actually makes it in there.
Many people don't like to call the double foul, how about
you? As for me, I'll call it when I can, it sends an
immediate message especially if it's off ball.

[Richard Ogg]

We're told to call the double foul when its warranted, but in most cases you have to call the double foul because you didn't call the first foul. IOW, if you're calling very many of those you are not officiating properly. My impression is one double foul per game is too many.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
We're told to call the double foul when its warranted, but in most cases you have to call the double foul because you didn't call the first foul. IOW, if you're calling very many of those you are not officiating properly. My impression is one double foul per game is too many.

Please do not fall for the myth of one double foul per game is too many. No one likes to have to officiate a game the requires a double foul to be called. When I have a pregame with an official who I have never officiated with and he tells me that he does not call double fouls or technical fouls I know that I might be in for a long night. Comments like that tell me that my partner does not have the right stuff to do the job.

I tell officials, especially new officials, do not go looking for obscure infractions, but when the unusual happens do not be afraid to take care of business.

As for thinking that a double foul in the post means that the first foul was missed is another myth. Yes, it happens, but it does not mean it is the norm. I do not like rough post play and if you were to analyze most post play at the beginning of the game it is a 50-50 proposition as to who starts the rough post play at the beginning of the game. Sometimes your first call is a foul on the offensive post player and sometimes it is on the defensive player and sometimes you just cannot help calling a double foul.

It is my opinion that a legitimate double foul call or a legitimate foul on the offensive post player early in the game goes along way is setting the tone for post play in the game.