What to do?

[VaOfficial]

A1 inbounds the ball at the start of a quarter/half in their backcourt. Mistakingly, A1 drives to B1's basket and shoots a layup and is fouled by B1 during the act of shooting. Ruling?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by VaOfficial

A1 inbounds the ball at the start of a quarter/half in their backcourt. Mistakingly, A1 drives to B1's basket and shoots a layup and is fouled by B1 during the act of shooting. Ruling?

Ball is dead when the foul is committed. If it goes through after contact, it does not count. If A is in the bonus, A1 will shoot free throws on the other end.

[rfp]

It is not considered "in the act of shooting" if a player is shooting at the wrong basket. Everything J.A.R. said applies.

[Nevadaref]

Since a try for goal is defined in the rules book as an attempt to throw the ball into a team's OWN basket, there is no shot on this play. Treat it the same as a player throwing a pass. The ball is dead when the foul occurs.

Boy if I had a nickel for every time someone asks that question on this forum...

[Mregor]

This doesn't have a lot to do with the original post but it's sort of relevant.

Several years ago, boys varsity, towards the end of the season. First place in conference @ last place but nieghboring rivals. 2-man. We arrive an hour early in the snow and parking lot is packed. We figure there is a swim meet or something else going on. Wrong, the house is packed and they are all there for the basketball game. Band, 2 chearleader squads, and extra bleachers on the auxillary court that runs perpendicular to the main court. The gym is so loud we can't even hear each other's whistle. Cheers going back and forth from "conference champs" to "over rated". Nothing nasty, just good clean fun. This is what high school athletics is all about! When we go to the table for introductions, the scorer lines up his pencils saying he is going to need all of them for this game. Great. I'm U and off the tip, A goes in for a layup and B commits a hard foul. I call the foul and go to T. As I'm standing there I look up at the clock and see 2 seconds have gone off clock. I do some quick math and figure we should be down to 1 player before the end of the quarter. From there on out, it was a great game. I think we made it through the first half with a 3 pt. game and fouls were 5-6 at the end of the half.

Towards the end of the 3rd quarter, about 10 seconds left, the visitor has a spot throw in on the backcourt endline. V takes a TO. On the ensuing throw in, they inbound the ball to a player that just subbed in during the TO. He is trapped just below the FT line. V1 (remember, he just subbed in) figures the path of least resistance is towards the goal so he shoots a layup in the wrong basket. I'm T. I look to the scorer and signal them to score 2 pts for home team. I watch the scoreboard to see the current score and make sure they get it right. In the meantime, since V just scored (albeit for the H team), H takes the ball OOB and inbounds it. Everyone starts going the other way. I'm looking at my partner not sure of what just happened because I was trying to verify the correct score. Now the guy H just inbounded to, takes a step in the wrong direction, and then realizes which basket is his, he turns around and puts up an uncontested layup in his correct basket. Horn goes off and their V's 3 pt lead is now a 1 pt. deficit. Both coaches come out at the same time, screaming. V saying "you can't count that" and H saying "you can't wipe that". I get them both away as my partner and I talk it over. We can hardly hear each other over the crowd's screams.

We discuss it and both agree that it is not a correctable error by definition. Consider a T for H being illegally OOB for inbounding the ball but based on the fact that V shot in the wrong basket, that didn't seem fair. We could not think of any way to correct it without unfairly penalizing H player for Visitor's error (and our error). My partner was the senior official and was embarrassed at his error and decided that he would just take the heat. He explained to both coaches that it was his error but he was not allowed by rule to correct it. H coach of course was happy and V coach wasn't, but he took it well. Game came down to a last second shot that was missed by H and V ended up winning by 1. I have yet to experience that atmosphere since.

Turns out we kicked the call. There was some case buried in the casebook. We should have wiped the second basket and put the time back on the clock with V correctly inbouding the ball. Seems logical now, but at the time, under those conditions, neither of us just never thought of that (I was caught up in the correctale error procedures). My partner emailed the V AD and coach and appologized for missing the call and not applying the proper correction. He stated what we should have done. Coach replied and said no problem and he would love to have us work his games in the future. Little did the coach know, the AD contacted the state association for an interpretation. The head of the state association backed up our initial ruling. When the AD got our email admitting our error, he forwarded it on to the state (who had just backed us) and said something to the affect, who is right? This required several more emails between us and the state.

A year later, I'm at a camp and I get the same coach. I asked him if he remembered me and he did right away. We laughed about it and he would crack me up every game at that camp with a comment or two. (I was ding'ed for being too friendly with the coach).

Sorry it was so long, but I've since moved and the area where I am at now is not nearly as fun. I've had a varsity girls game here with 12 people in the stands at the tip (Div 5A). There just isn't the interest in scholastic sports here that there was in Wisconsin. Still hoping to get to experience that atmosphere again.

[johnnyrao]

I'm confused about two things:

1) Can someone explain what rule allows them to take the points off the board and administer the throw-in to the visitors. I am not saying this is illogical but what allows this by rule.

2) If you were driving in the snow, why would you ever think there was a swim meet going on? The kids in Wisconsin must be pretty tough.

[Texas Aggie]

If they score in the wrong basket, stop play, count the basket for whoever it counts for, then put the ball in play correctly. If you don't do this, you will have a screw up like the one mentioned. Of course, this means you realized it on the first score...

Incidentally, I saw a swim meet going on last year during just about the coldest weekend of the year here in Texas. Of course, that could me 37 degrees with a wind chill of 31. Hint: a nautatorium was used, though I'm sure it was still pretty chilly in there if you were wet.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

I'm confused about two things:

1) Can someone explain what rule allows them to take the points off the board and administer the throw-in to the visitors. I am not saying this is illogical but what allows this by rule.

I don't have current books, they are at Kinkos getting bound together. The only ones I could easily find are 2002-3. It's in CB, 10.1.8. Basically, it says if A erroneously takes the ball out after a goal or a TO and subsequently scores, you do the following:

a. Charge Team A with a Tech
b. Cancel the goal
c. Cancel any common fouls and any non-flagrant fouls against the shooter
d. Put consumed time back on clock

It goes on further to say that if there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, follow the entire procedure above except that no technical foul is charged.

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

2) If you were driving in the snow, why would you ever think there was a swim meet going on? The kids in Wisconsin must be pretty tough.

They swim really fast to get out of the cold.

Mregor

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

I'm confused about two things:

1) Can someone explain what rule allows them to take the points off the board and administer the throw-in to the visitors. I am not saying this is illogical but what allows this by rule.

Originally Posted by Mregor

I don't have current books, they are at Kinkos getting bound together. The only ones I could easily find are 2002-3. It's in CB, 10.1.8. Basically, it says if A erroneously takes the ball out after a goal or a TO and subsequently scores, you do the following:

a. Charge Team A with a Tech
b. Cancel the goal
c. Cancel any common fouls and any non-flagrant fouls against the shooter
d. Put consumed time back on clock

It goes on further to say that if there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, follow the entire procedure above except that no technical foul is charged.
Mregor

Someone else will have to tell us when this Case Book ruling was adopted as I only have books going back to the 2001-2002 season. (I foolishly tossed the previous ones out before I discovered this forum.) This ruling is in that year's book and the wording is still the same today.

A SPECIFIC UNSPORTING ACT
10.1.8 SITUATION: Immediately following a goal or free throw by Team A, A1 inbounds the ball to A2 and A2 subsequently throws the ball through A's basket. RULING: The following procedure has been adopted to handle this specific situation if it is recognized before the opponents gain control or before the next throw-in begins: (a) charge Team A with a technical foul; (b) cancel the field goal; (c) cancel any common foul(s) committed and any nonflagrant foul against A2 in the act of shooting; and (d) put “consumed” time back on the clock. COMMENT: If there is no doubt the throw-in was a result of confusion, the entire procedure would be followed except no technical foul would be charged. This procedure shall not be used in any other throw-in situation in which a mistake allows the wrong team to inbound the ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

If they score in the wrong basket, stop play, count the basket for whoever it counts for, then put the ball in play correctly. If you don't do this, you will have a screw up like the one mentioned. Of course, this means you realized it on the first score...

That is the correct procedure and is detailed in the Simplified & Illustrated book.

4-5-2 Number 4 is confused and dunks the ball in B's basket. The covering official stops play after the dunk and credits the two points to Team B. Team A will then be given the ball for a throw-in from anywhere outside the end line.

[SamIAm]

I will go the other way on this. Play at the wrong baskets when both teams are confused and playing normal basketball, just at the wrong ends, counts. Two shots (at the correct basket), count the basket, which ever applies and turn them around.

The original post shorts us on information. Was B1 playing defense?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I will go the other way on this. Play at the wrong baskets when both teams are confused and playing normal basketball, just at the wrong ends, counts.

This is only true if everybody is confused, including the officials. In that case, all the action counts up to the point when the mistake is discovered. Then you turn them the right direction and just keep going.

But if the player just blanks and shoots at the wrong basket, it's not a try. So no FTs (unless in the bonus).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I will go the other way on this. Play at the wrong baskets when both teams are confused and playing normal basketball, just at the wrong ends, counts. Two shots (at the correct basket), count the basket, which ever applies and turn them around.

Woud you do this if it was the beginning of the 2nd half and the officials administered the throw-in with everyone pointed in the right direction?

I don't consider this the same as administering the opening tap with everyone pointed the wrong direction.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by SamIAm

I will go the other way on this. Play at the wrong baskets when both teams are confused and playing normal basketball, just at the wrong ends, counts. Two shots (at the correct basket), count the basket, which ever applies and turn them around.

The original post shorts us on information. Was B1 playing defense?

Sam,
You can only apply that ruling to action which takes place at the beginning of a quarter. This is because the officials are responsible for pointing the jumpers in the proper directions to begin the game and for giving a color and direction prior to the administering the AP throw-in which begins the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th quarters.

At any other point in the game the officials have no such responsibility. The official does not signal the direction of the throw-in when the play is resumed following a time-out. The teams have already been instructed in their proper directions for that playing period.

The applicable Case Book plays are:

5.2.1 SITUATION E: During the pregame practice period, the visiting team properly uses the east goal and the home team the west goal. The officials, by mistake, allow the jumpers to face the wrong direction to start the game. A1 controls the tap by tapping the ball back to A2. A2, realizing that he/she had warmed up at the basket behind A1, dribbles to that basket and scores an uncontested basket. RULING: Score the basket for Team A. The officials should stop the game and emphasize to both teams the proper direction. The mistake is an official's error by allowing A1 and B1 to face the wrong direction; not a correctable error.

5.2.1 SITUATION F: During the pregame practice period, the visiting team properly uses the east goal and the home team the west goal. The officials, by mistake, allow the jumpers to face the wrong direction to start the game. Several baskets are scored before it is recognized that both teams are throwing the ball into the opponent's basket. RULING: All points scored count as if the teams had gone the right direction and scored in their own basket. Once the mistake is recognized, play shall continue with each team attempting to score in its own basket. (4-5-4)

4.41.2 SITUATION: A1 becomes confused and throws the ball at the wrong basket. A1 is fouled by B1 and the ball goes into the basket. Is this a successful basket? If A1 missed, would A1 be awarded two free throws for the foul by B1? RULING: No goal. The ball became dead when the foul occurred. When a player throws at the opponent's basket, it is not a try. If the team is in the bonus when B1 fouled A1, A1 is given either a one-and-one attempt or two free throws at Team A's basket. If Team A was not in the bonus, then the ball is awarded to Team A for a throw-in at the out-of-bounds spot nearest the foul. (7-5-5)


5.2.3 SITUATION: A1 completes the throw-in to A2 to begin the second half. A2 is confused and dribbles toward the basket Team A used during the first half and dunks the ball into the basket of Team B. RULING: Legal goal. Two points are awarded to Team B. The ball is bounced to a player of Team A out of bounds at the basket of Team B. Team A may put the ball in play from anywhere along the end line as after any score by B (earned or awarded). (5-2-1; 7-5-7)

[SamIAm]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Woud you do this if it was the beginning of the 2nd half and the officials administered the throw-in with everyone pointed in the right direction?.

What is there to do? Everyone went in the right direction.

I don't consider this the same as administering the opening tap with everyone pointed the wrong direction.

I am pretty sure the rule, which I don't have handy, is concerned with what you consider. It matters not when it occurs. Correct it when discovered, count the action.

edited later-
BNR, that sounds kind of pointed, please excuse.

The case plays above in Nevada post cover a single incident. No points, no shots, ball OOB unless in the bonus. I should have went with the crowd.