Two weird things

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

Not quite -- the coach gets one indirect for each of the three that fought, plus one more for all the others who left but didn't fight.

Understood, just not addressed because he was ejected for the 3 indirect T's.

It makes no difference in this particular case -- the coach is gone anyway, but it might make a difference if the numbers were a little different.

Jim Dixon (I think) wrote an interesting summary on these rules a few years ago. I'll try to find it and post it, but a summary is:

Yep, you sent it to me but I couldn't put my hands on it during this discussion. I reviewed it during the season last year and plan to again this year. I still have it, just have to locate it.

[ChuckElias]

1) Players Come off and do NOT fight -- doesn't matter how many, just one indirect. If numbers for both teams are same, they offset. IF numbers aren't the same, shoot two throws.


Bob, does this mean that if 3 players come off A's bench, and 2 players come off B's bench, but NOBODY from either bench participates, then B will shoot 2 free throws?

I think that's right, b/c even though only 1 indirect T is assessed to each coach for bench personnel, each of the substitutes from the bench gets a direct T. So 3 direct T's on A (plus one indirect on the coach), and only 2 direct T's on B (plus one indirect on the coach). Therefore, 2 free throws for B.

Is the above scenario changed if Team B has more players that actually participate in the fight? Say all the above remains true AND B1 and B2 punch A1 who also punches B1.

Now it seems that all the direct T's even out. Would we still shoot anything?


3) Coaches leave bench (without being beckoned) -- Flagrant direct on coach -- whether s/he fights or not. IF both coaches leave bench, they offset. If not, shoot two throws.


I was once told that if a coach comes off the bench to break up a fight, there is a 100% chance that he was beckoned, whether anybody saw it or not. Does anybody think that's valid? As long as the coach is breaking things up, you're not going to penalize him/her?

I guess that was more than one more question.

Chuck

[mick]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


I was once told that if a coach comes off the bench to break up a fight, there is a 100% chance that he was beckoned, whether anybody saw it or not. Does anybody think that's valid? As long as the coach is breaking things up, you're not going to penalize him/her?

I guess that was more than one more question.

Chuck

Chuck,
I saw you beckon that coach.
That is well within the spirit and intent of the book.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by mick
Chuck,
I saw you beckon that coach.
That is well within the spirit and intent of the book.
mick [/B]

Thanks mick. I thought so. Just checking how other people see it.

Chuck

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias


1) Players Come off and do NOT fight -- doesn't matter how many, just one indirect. If numbers for both teams are same, they offset. IF numbers aren't the same, shoot two throws.


Bob, does this mean that if 3 players come off A's bench, and 2 players come off B's bench, but NOBODY from either bench participates, then B will shoot 2 free throws?

I think that's right, b/c even though only 1 indirect T is assessed to each coach for bench personnel, each of the substitutes from the bench gets a direct T. So 3 direct T's on A (plus one indirect on the coach), and only 2 direct T's on B (plus one indirect on the coach). Therefore, 2 free throws for B.

Right - and it doesn't matter how big the discrepancy is. If 10 from A left and 1 from B left, but noe participated, you'd still have 1 indirect on each coach and B would shoot the throws for one technical (two throws). A would have a lot more team fouls, though.

Is the above scenario changed if Team B has more players that actually participate in the fight? Say all the above remains true AND B1 and B2 punch A1 who also punches B1.

Now it seems that all the direct T's even out. Would we still shoot anything?

Let me make sure I've got the scenario straight: A1, A2, A3, B1 and B2 come off the bench. A1, B1 and B2 particpate.

First, determine the fouls by category:

1) A has two off the bench; B has zero off the bench -- B will shoot 2.

2) A has one participate; B has 2 participate -- A will shoot two.

3) N/A

Now, add up the totals and offset. Here, they offset exactly, so no free throws are shot.

3) Coaches leave bench (without being beckoned) -- Flagrant direct on coach -- whether s/he fights or not. IF both coaches leave bench, they offset. If not, shoot two throws.


I was once told that if a coach comes off the bench to break up a fight, there is a 100% chance that he was beckoned, whether anybody saw it or not. Does anybody think that's valid? As long as the coach is breaking things up, you're not going to penalize him/her?

I agree.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Let me make sure I've got the scenario straight: A1, A2, A3, B1 and B2 come off the bench. A1, B1 and B2 particpate.

Actually, Bob, in my mind, I was thinking that the players off the benches did not participate in the fight, but that 3 "players" (actually in the game) were fighting. I don't think it matters, tho, it should work out the same, right?

Chuck

[Danvrapp]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I don't think it matters, tho, it should work out the same, right?

Well, except you'd bang the coach if the players came off the bench--whether they participated or not--whereas you wouldn't if it were players on the court.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

I was once told that if a coach comes off the bench to break up a fight, there is a 100% chance that he was beckoned, whether anybody saw it or not. Does anybody think that's valid? As long as the coach is breaking things up, you're not going to penalize him/her?

I guess that was more than one more question.

Hey, that was two questions!

Yes, I think that's valid. In fact, I was going to post the same thing. As long as the coach is helpful when he enters the floor, we consider him to be beckoned. If he starts more ****, then he's got to go.