fashion police?

[deecee]

even in SoCAL it was a huge POI -- I mean how can these players here worry about uniforms they have more important things to worry about like whos house they will have their party at and if daddy will buy them that bmw they wanted.

On a serious note however I hate the fashion police idea but it was drilled to much to us that the FED wants it dealt with this is one thing my pride will have to be swallowed and I will have to be anal about it. I dont like it but it wasn't just mentioned in passing. After 10 slides and several top officials and administrators going over it and about 1 hour of brainwashing I have succumbed. In all games starting in December -- which is when our tourneys start I will be enforcing these rules -- the higher the level the more anal I will be.

My only fear with the way this went and will go is that there will be several officials -- more rather than fewer -- (the reason I feel this way is that I would rahther build relationships with these younger players who I as a ef would hope to see again at the higher levels and already have a repore as someone who will work with players and coaches than be an a$$ -- JMO)who will treat jimmy on the freshman squad with the same letter of the law attitude as Franky on the Varsity squad. I think the uniform rules should be a pyramid of severity of punishment. The lower levels in these cases should be allowed to almost get away with murder before assessing T's and ejections and whistles and arm movements and what not. However at the varsity level after game 1 there should be no need to offer more than 1 warning. These coaches should know and the kids what's acceptable or not and it should be smooth sailing. I guarantee if any official T's up a kid on a varsity squad for one of these infractions as long as that coach is working it will never happen again -- that I will guarantee. Unless Chuck or JR start coaching that is, then we could have many recurring incidents for rogue fishnets on the court but I hope I dont see that day anytime soon.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by deecee

even in SoCAL it was a huge POI -- I mean how can these players here worry about uniforms they have more important things to worry about like whos house they will have their party at and if daddy will buy them that bmw they wanted.

On a serious note however I hate the fashion police idea but it was drilled to much to us that the FED wants it dealt with this is one thing my pride will have to be swallowed and I will have to be anal about it. I dont like it but it wasn't just mentioned in passing. After 10 slides and several top officials and administrators going over it and about 1 hour of brainwashing I have succumbed. In all games starting in December -- which is when our tourneys start I will be enforcing these rules -- the higher the level the more anal I will be.

My only fear with the way this went and will go is that there will be several officials -- more rather than fewer -- (the reason I feel this way is that I would rahther build relationships with these younger players who I as a ef would hope to see again at the higher levels and already have a repore as someone who will work with players and coaches than be an a$$ -- JMO)who will treat jimmy on the freshman squad with the same letter of the law attitude as Franky on the Varsity squad. I think the uniform rules should be a pyramid of severity of punishment. The lower levels in these cases should be allowed to almost get away with murder before assessing T's and ejections and whistles and arm movements and what not. However at the varsity level after game 1 there should be no need to offer more than 1 warning. These coaches should know and the kids what's acceptable or not and it should be smooth sailing. I guarantee if any official T's up a kid on a varsity squad for one of these infractions as long as that coach is working it will never happen again -- that I will guarantee. Unless Chuck or JR start coaching that is, then we could have many recurring incidents for rogue fishnets on the court but I hope I dont see that day anytime soon.

Interesting, when it comes to sportsmanship, most officials, including me, crack down on unsportsmanlike conduct more at the lower levels, and then talk to the kids a little more as they move up. It's all in how you approach it. I take the nip it in the bud stance and take care of business more in lower level games. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I haven't heard this stance from too many officials.

[deecee]

as JR likes to say APPLES TO ORANGES -- or is is CARS TO BURGERS

unsportsmanlike and uniform issues are 2 different things.

[Junker]

Absolutely. I let a little more go uniform wise at the lower levels because they are a little younger. I don't expect a freshman in high school to have different colored undershirts and such. I guess I view the lower level games as more of a learning environment. I always inform coaches and the players about the uniform violations, but more often than not I let them in the game. Of course this is the total opposite of my view on sportsmanship where I take very little unsportsmanlike behavior from lower level players and coaches. Maybe I need to work on my own consistancy

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

The lower levels in these cases should be allowed to almost get away with murder before assessing T's and ejections and whistles and arm movements and what not. However at the varsity level after game 1 there should be no need to offer more than 1 warning. These coaches should know and the kids what's acceptable or not and it should be smooth sailing. I guarantee if any official T's up a kid on a varsity squad for one of these infractions as long as that coach is working it will never happen again -- that I will guarantee. Unless Chuck or JR start coaching that is, then we could have many recurring incidents for rogue fishnets on the court but I hope I dont see that day anytime soon.

Are these uniform infractions "T"-able offenses? I thought we were just removing players from the game until they corrected their infraction(s).

[deecee]

if a player doesn't get it or a team keeps being addressed for the same infraction what are the options?

If i have to address 3 different subs about something after I have told the coach to make sure to fix X there is only so much talking one can do and eventually a punishment has to be doled out. what do you guys think.

I mean a T is last option but it is an option.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

if a player doesn't get it or a team keeps being addressed for the same infraction what are the options?

If i have to address 3 different subs about something after I have told the coach to make sure to fix X there is only so much talking one can do and eventually a punishment has to be doled out. what do you guys think.

I mean a T is last option but it is an option.

I hoping when you send the number 1 D-1 recruit in the conference to the bench for a uniform infraction that message reverberates to all those in attendance.

[deecee]

Let me just say that the day I make a call and worry what those in attendance think about it should be the last day I work as an official.

Secondly if I ask said number 1 D-1 recruit to remove an arm band and he comes back in the game with the same arm band now what-- Do I say "Hey number 1 D-1 recruit I asked you to remove that and you decided that you wont so since you are the number 1 D-1 recruit I will bow to simply be in your presence." As soft as some of you might think I am for this guy to be the Number 1 D-1 recruit he should know that if an official asks him to fix something he should.

So I can see what you will do -- but I will at the least asses a delay of game warning to said team for forcing me to stop the game while said player had to fix something I ALREADY asked him to fix. If its the second warning then a T will be administered. But since he is the Numbe 1 D-1 recruit maybe I should just not do that and give him my whistle as well or maybe give it to a fan because I am SOO concerned what they think of my calls.

Unless you thought by last option you figured that my last option was my first option. I expected more from you badnews but I try and treat every player the same sometimes thats tough like in this instance -- I mean the number 1 D-1 recruit. I should only be grateful to be in his presence. [/endsarcasm]

[edit]Junker what do you do for the same infraction repeated by the same player or team after it has been clearly addressed? There has to be a penalty in place than just saying hey go back to the bench and get it fixed again.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Let me just say that the day I make a call and worry what those in attendance think about it should be the last day I work as an official.

Since you seem to not comprehend what I said I'll spell it out for you.

Those in attendance = coaches

Once #1 D-1 recruit gets sent to bench I'm thinking the coach doesn't want it to happen again to him/her or any other player(s) on the team. If you want to whack someone, whack any thick-skulled head coach when he/she comes out the box to argue your nit-picking of the rules.

[deecee]

It depends on how the coach approaches me -- just because he comes out or question this doesn't mean I am going to whack him right away. Use common sense.

Besides this is how THIS conversation will go

Coach: How could you go that coach?
Me: Coach I have asked him to address this same issue about 5 minutes ago? I also let you know of why I sent him back to the bench last time you tried to substitute him in did I not?
Coach: Yes you did but how could you T me up or give me a second delay (whatever it was)?
Me: Coach how could you not fix something I asked you to just 5 minutes ago? how could your player not fix it as well after I asked him as well? Coach what else am I supposed to do when I ask you and your player to do something and both of you ignore me?
----now how this will continue if this is you
Badnews: Coach I am sorry that this upsets you and your Number1 D-1 recruit let me just recind my T (or whatever the penalty was).
Coach: Good boy, good boy -- heres a treat.

I mean really I am the last person who wants to give a T and from past posts I have made it clear that I am more lenient giving T's but dont mistake that for me not having the testicular fortitude to have to call one when players and coaches are just ignoring what I am asking them to do. My leniency should not reflect on my ability to have to be authoritative I just approach it differently then some guys here and by the time I give out a T usually players, coaches, administration, fans, even Bill Walton will know why said T was handed out. Its not really my fault that a thick skulled coach cannot grasp the concept of -- "Coach your players cannot enter the game with an arm band on their bicep" -- and coach looks at me and says "Ok" then sends a player to sub in with bicep band and I send said player back out to fix it and tell the coach "Coach I just told you they cannot do that". Honestly next time I would not even beckon said sub into the game unless there were others there -- and if said sub had bicep band I would send him back out and penalize with a delay of game. If thats the second one they hey its a T -- but nowhere there will I feel guilty because I spelled it out to the coach and I would have mentioned it to the sub and I would have told the coach earlier that these infractions I will make the sub wait till the following dead ball to enter the game.

His lack of enforcing his responsbilities is not my problem. I tried to work with him and address it but after a while you HAVE TO transition from talk to action.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by deecee

Let me just say that the day I make a call and worry what those in attendance think about it should be the last day I work as an official.

Since you seem to not comprehend the message I was trying to convey I'll spell it out for you.

Those in attendance = coaches

Once #1 D-1 recruit gets sent to bench I'm thinking the coach doesn't want it to happen again to him/her or any other player(s) on the team. If you want to whack someone, whack any thick-skulled head coach who comes out the box to argue your nit-picking of the rules.

Originally Posted by deecee

...for forcing me to stop the game while said player had to fix something I ALREADY asked him to fix.

You don't stop the game for him/her to fix it, you send him/her back out the game, or better yet, notice it while he/she (no, i'm not talking about transvestites) is at the scorer's table and do not allow him/her to check into the game.

[Junker]

The player simply is not allowed on the floor until the uniform violation is taken care of. I don't know how it could go on reapeatedly as most kids want to play above all. There is no T in the book on this and one cannot be called.

[drinkeii]

Originally Posted by deecee

Let me just say that the day I make a call and worry what those in attendance think about it should be the last day I work as an official.

Secondly if I ask said number 1 D-1 recruit to remove an arm band and he comes back in the game with the same arm band now what-- Do I say "Hey number 1 D-1 recruit I asked you to remove that and you decided that you wont so since you are the number 1 D-1 recruit I will bow to simply be in your presence." As soft as some of you might think I am for this guy to be the Number 1 D-1 recruit he should know that if an official asks him to fix something he should.

So I can see what you will do -- but I will at the least asses a delay of game warning to said team for forcing me to stop the game while said player had to fix something I ALREADY asked him to fix. If its the second warning then a T will be administered. But since he is the Numbe 1 D-1 recruit maybe I should just not do that and give him my whistle as well or maybe give it to a fan because I am SOO concerned what they think of my calls.

Unless you thought by last option you figured that my last option was my first option. I expected more from you badnews but I try and treat every player the same sometimes thats tough like in this instance -- I mean the number 1 D-1 recruit. I should only be grateful to be in his presence. [/endsarcasm]

[edit]Junker what do you do for the same infraction repeated by the same player or team after it has been clearly addressed? There has to be a penalty in place than just saying hey go back to the bench and get it fixed again.

I like the delay-of-game warning, and it makes sense - but I don't know if it is supported by the rules. I guess you could say it is a situation in which the team is not ready to play, so therefore it is a delay situation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by drinkeii

I like the delay-of-game warning, and it makes sense - but I don't know if it is supported by the rules. I guess you could say it is a situation in which the team is not ready to play, so therefore it is a delay situation.

No, David, it is not supported by the rules. It is not one of the four different warnings outlined in the rules.

You can issue an immediate "T" to a player delaying the game under the language of R10-3-6(a), but you should be very, very careful in using that one imo.

[Junker]

You can not throw a T for most uniform infractions. All you can do is keep sending them to the bench. The only uniform infractions that warrant a T are wearing an illigal numer, shirt or pants/skirt. Penalties for other infractions such as an illegal headband is they do not participate until it is changed.