Thrown Elbow - Live Ball vs. Dead Ball

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rfp

Just so I'm clear, an unsportsmanlike thrown elbow will be called differently depending on whether the ball is live or dead?

For example, players A1 and B1 are fighting for a held ball between them. Either a) before the held ball whistle is blown or b) after the held ball whistle is blown, player A1 throws a non-flagrant elbow that connects with B1's torso.

In a), since the ball is live, a technical foul cannot be called. If it is non-flagrant, the only choice left is an intentional foul

In b), since the ball is dead, I can have an unsportsmanlike technical foul called.

Is that right? Seems like the same infraction one second before or after the whistle causes a different call to be made.

No, in both situations.

a) No, it can't be a T unless it's the beginning of a fight. But an intentional foul is not the "only choice." It could easily be just a common foul.

b) It's an intentional technical foul, not an unsporting technical foul. Unsporting = non-contact, intentional T = contact.

As for your whistle issue, if there's no contact, there isn't going to be a whistle. If a foul does occur and a whistle sounds, then yes it's a T.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

As for your whistle issue, if there's no contact, there isn't going to be a whistle. If a foul does occur and a whistle sounds, then yes it's a T.

This doesn't apply to the OP. In that case, there would be a whistle even if there was no contact, because there was a held ball. The question has to do with the relationship between the whistle for the held ball, and the contact. If the contact occured before the held-ball whistle, then the foul called ofr that contact is either an intentional personal or a common foul. If the contact is after the whistle, it's a technical foul. Right?

[Ignats75]

I would agree with that assessment Rainmaker.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

This doesn't apply to the OP. In that case, there would be a whistle even if there was no contact, because there was a held ball. The question has to do with the relationship between the whistle for the held ball, and the contact. If the contact occured before the held-ball whistle, then the foul called ofr that contact is either an intentional personal or a common foul. If the contact is after the whistle, it's a technical foul. Right?

I was speaking in general terms, with regard to his statement, "Seems like the same infraction one second before or after the whistle causes a different call to be made."

[rfp]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

a) No, it can't be a T unless it's the beginning of a fight.

A thrown elbow couldn't be the beginning of a fight? Of course it could, which is why the official jumps in immediately with an intentional-personal or unsporting technical foul depending on the time of the foul relative to the whistle.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rfp

A thrown elbow couldn't be the beginning of a fight? Of course it could, which is why the official jumps in immediately with an intentional-personal or unsporting technical foul depending on the time of the foul relative to the whistle.

Yes, it could be the beginning of a fight. But it couldn't ever be a technical foul of some kind, as you say. There was live-ball contact on the play. That has to be a personal foul of some type, as per rule 4-19-1. It happened before the whistle blew. Technical fouls during a live ball have to be non-contact fouls, as per rule 4-19-5. Iow, BktBallRef was completely correct.

[rfp]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, it could be the beginning of a fight. But it couldn't ever be a technical foul of some kind, as you say. There was live-ball contact on the play. That has to be a personal foul of some type, as per rule 4-19-1. It happened before the whistle blew. Technical fouls during a live ball have to be non-contact fouls, as per rule 4-19-5. Iow, BktBallRef was completely correct.

I understand. The only part of BktBallRef's response I disagree with is his comment that it couldn't be a T unless it's the beginning of a fight. As long as the ball was live when the contact started, it sounds like it can never be a T.