Thrown Elbow - Live Ball vs. Dead Ball

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by rfp

Just so I'm clear, an unsportsmanlike thrown elbow will be called differently depending on whether the ball is live or dead?

For example, players A1 and B1 are fighting for a held ball between them. Either a) before the held ball whistle is blown or b) after the held ball whistle is blown, player A1 throws a non-flagrant elbow that connects with B1's torso.

In a), since the ball is live, a technical foul cannot be called. If it is non-flagrant, the only choice left is an intentional foul

In b), since the ball is dead, I can have an unsportsmanlike technical foul called.

Is that right? Seems like the same infraction one second before or after the whistle causes a different call to be made.

Not sure if the original OP in reference to a NCAA or NFHS game. If it is a NCAA Men's game the the following would apply for the dead ball contact thats deemed non flagrant.

Rule 4-26 Art. 7. (Men) Intentional technical foul. An intentional technical foul involves intentionally contacting an opponent in a non-flagrant manner when the ball is dead.

If the contact was considered severe then that would fall under

Art. 5. Flagrant technical foul, dead ball. A flagrant foul shall be a technical
foul when it involves either unsportsmanlike conduct that is extreme in
nature, or severe, excessive contact against an opponent while the ball is
dead.

If the ball is live and you deem the elbow excessive the following would apply:
"

Art. 6. When during the course of play, an individual strikes an opponent
with the hand, elbow, arm, foot, knee or leg in a non-confrontational manner
but the act is excessive or severe, it shall be ruled as a flagrant foul and not
a fighting action. When a defined body part is used to strike an opponent
but the contact is not severe or excessive, a judgment shall be made by the
official as to whether the contact is intentional.

If in your judgment it wasn't flagrant or excessive then your only options would be Intentional or personal since no player control existed.

If its a NFHS game then it would slightly different. If there was no player control before the held ball then your foul option would be personal, intentional, or flagrant. The type and severity of the contact would dictate the call.

If the ball was dead or if it happened after the whistle was blown then you now have a dead ball contact foul which will always be a technical. Either a intentional or a flagrant technical. Again the severity of the act would dictate the call. Any dead ball contact foul would always be a technical in NFHS.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Live ball.Player A attempts to strike Player B, I judge this to be a flagrant act. What mechanics would I use since I can't issue a Technical ?

Why can't you issue a Technical?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why can't you issue a Technical?

The only thing you can call here is a Player Technical. Defined in Rule 4-18 "Art. 1.....an attempt to strike,punch, or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms, legs, or feet regardless of wheter contact is made."

Penalty is a player technical, found in Rule 10-3 Art. 9 "be charged with fighting."

[Mregor]

It's not that difficult.

Re-read Chuck's post. The only thing I'd add to it is that if there is no contact, it could also be a violation.

The rule for excessively swinging the elbow was revised several years ago and the discussion was very clear. If you have live-ball contact, it's either a common foul (PC), intentional, or flagrant. If there is no contact you can have a violation or a T. Any dead ball has to be a T.

Mregor

[Adam]

Okay, 4 games this year so far in two different weekends. I've called the violation twice now; on the same player in two different games. Funny thing is, I could see her concentrating on it the rest of the game today.