3 seconds

[Almost Always Right]

First of all - I have to say that 3 seconds is not in my priorities on the floor, however, during our annual clinic we had an instructor that has interperted this rule a certain way and it appears to differ from the "norm" of our association.
Having that said, here is the sitch: A player enters the lane while dribbling and has their head and shoulders in front of the primary defender, secondary defenders then stop the advancement toward the goal and the offensive player then picks up the dribble. While pivoting to keep "working for the shot", the offensive player does not leave the key. The problem is the ambiguity of the rule. When you read it, you will understand what I mean.
The questions are these:
Do you suspend the 3 second count while the offensive player keeps "working for their shot"?
Could you have a 5 second closely guarded before you have 3 second violation?
The problem I have with the ambiguity is the wording about a shot.
Any ideas? Thanks in advance for your candor.
TR

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Almost Always Right

.
Having that said, here is the sitch: A player enters the lane while dribbling and has their head and shoulders in front of the primary defender, secondary defenders then stop the advancement toward the goal and the offensive player then picks up the dribble. While pivoting to keep "working for the shot", the offensive player does not leave the key.

1) Do you suspend the 3 second count while the offensive player keeps "working for their shot"?
2) Could you have a 5 second closely guarded before you have 3 second violation?

1) No. Rule 9-3 says that you make allowance for a player dribbling in or moving immediately to try for goal. Is your player dribbling in? No. Is your player immediately trying for goal. Not by your description; it sounds like he's throwing a coupla fakes instead. The rule of thumb is that you let the offensive player go straight to the basket and then complete the act of shooting, without stopping for any reason in between(pass, fakes, etc.).

2) You can, but not on this particular play. The 5-second count terminated when the dribbler got their head and shoulders past the primary defender.

[refnrev]

I'm not clear from your post. Did you have the player in the lane or at the top of the key?

[Almost Always Right]

. . . A player enters the lane while dribbling . . .

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Almost Always Right

Do you suspend the 3 second count while the offensive player keeps "working for their shot"?

You only suspend the count when a player who dribbles in or tries "immediately" for goal. If you are pivoting to "keep working for the shot", then you are not dribbling in for a shot, nor are you making an "immediate" try. Violation. I don't think the rule is vague at all.

Could you have a 5 second closely guarded before you have 3 second violation?

The only way to get a 5-second closely guarded violation on a player in the lane is if the count was at 2 when he entered the lane. Otherwise, you'll get to 3 first.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

The only way to get a 5-second closely guarded violation on a player in the lane is if the count was at 2 when he entered the lane. Otherwise, you'll get to 3 first.

Hmmmmm.....

What if the count was at 3 when he entered the lane?

What if the count was at 4 when he entered the lane?

I know, I know.....

[David B]

Originally Posted by Almost Always Right

First of all - I have to say that 3 seconds is not in my priorities on the floor, however, during our annual clinic we had an instructor that has interperted this rule a certain way and it appears to differ from the "norm" of our association.
Having that said, here is the sitch: A player enters the lane while dribbling and has their head and shoulders in front of the primary defender, secondary defenders then stop the advancement toward the goal and the offensive player then picks up the dribble. While pivoting to keep "working for the shot", the offensive player does not leave the key. The problem is the ambiguity of the rule. When you read it, you will understand what I mean.
The questions are these:
Do you suspend the 3 second count while the offensive player keeps "working for their shot"?
Could you have a 5 second closely guarded before you have 3 second violation?
The problem I have with the ambiguity is the wording about a shot.
Any ideas? Thanks in advance for your candor.
TR

I don't have records to show it, but I think on this type of play most good officials will give the player the benefit of the doubt as long as he's making a legitimate attempt to score.

The reason I say that is you very seldom see 3 seconds called on a player with the ball simply because he's not gaining an advantage which is the basic purpose of the 3 second rule.

Now if the player passes out etc.,

I think you see this type of play also much more frequently in ladies ball vs mens ball.

Thanks
David

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by David B

Now if the player passes out etc.,

If that happens, you have atotally different situation!

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by David B

The reason I say that is you very seldom see 3 seconds called on a player with the ball simply because he's not gaining an advantage which is the basic purpose of the 3 second rule.

I have to disagree with that. If you let a player stand in the lane for 10 seconds and try every move he's got in his arsenal, that's a huge advantage. He's almost guaranteed of getting fouled or getting open. The longer you let him pump and fake and juke, the bigger advantage he's getting. That's why (IMHO) the rule suspends the count for a player who moves immediately to score.

[David B]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

I have to disagree with that. If you let a player stand in the lane for 10 seconds and try every move he's got in his arsenal, that's a huge advantage. He's almost guaranteed of getting fouled or getting open. The longer you let him pump and fake and juke, the bigger advantage he's getting. That's why (IMHO) the rule suspends the count for a player who moves immediately to score.

I agree with you totally, but again in reality I don't ever think I've seen it called other than in Jr high ball and down. (and this is the player who gets in the lane in "no man's land" and has a much bigger player on him and can't get a shot off)

I guess my point would be that when a player is making an attempt to score (which would include a fake or move) we as officials should give the benefit of doubt to the offense.

I think that's what the rule is covering.

The player I think about would be Kevin McHale and his great moves under the basket. Another current player would be Dewayne Wade.

Thanks
David

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by David B

I

I guess my point would be that when a player is making an attempt to score (which would include a fake or move) we as officials should give the benefit of doubt to the offense.

I think that's what the rule is covering.

Disagree. Fakes are not included and never have been included. The FED clarified that in a memo years ago. The rule (9-9-3)should be called exactly the way that it reads. You give a player allowance to finish dribbling to the basket or moving immediately to shoot(which basically means the "act"of shooting" as defined under R4-41). The player can dribble straight to the basket, stop dribbling and immediately go into the act of shooting. That's the spirit and intent of the rule. Allowing a player to remain in the lane for longer than 3 seconds while he fakes and passes are giving the player an advantage never intended by the rulesmakers.

As for Kevin McHale, .....when did the NBA ever go by their own rules?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Allowing a player to remain in the lane for longer than 3 seconds while he fakes and passes are giving the player an advantage never intended by the rulesmakers.

This is quite a difference from what I thought you were originally saying, Mr Big Potato.

Can he stay in the lane for more than 3 seconds if he fakes but eventually puts up the shot?

[David B]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. Fakes are not included and never have been included. The FED clarified that in a memo years ago. The rule (9-9-3)should be called exactly the way that it reads. You give a player allowance to finish dribbling to the basket or moving immediately to shoot(which basically means the "act"of shooting" as defined under R4-41). The player can dribble straight to the basket, stop dribbling and immediately go into the act of shooting. That's the spirit and intent of the rule. Allowing a player to remain in the lane for longer than 3 seconds while he fakes and passes are giving the player an advantage never intended by the rulesmakers.

As for Kevin McHale, .....when did the NBA ever go by their own rules?

I've been looking for a case play or something but can find nothing to clarify.

Moving to shoot? not defined.

Act of shooting also includes steps.

I guess my contention is that I just can't remember this being called in any games that I've attended, watched etc.,

I don't do college basketball but would be interested to see what their take on this play is, I know you will see it in college when the little guards drive into the lane etc,

Surely we can't have the offense just staying in the lane, but also IMO this rule does give them some leeway.

Thanks for the clarification though.
David

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This is quite a difference from what I thought you were originally saying, Mr Big Potato.

Can he stay in the lane for more than 3 seconds if he fakes but eventually puts up the shot?

Sure he can...if the official doesn't call it.

If a post player gets the ball at the top of the lane after being in there for 2, and then turns and dribbles to the hole taking up another coupla seconds, then stops and throws in a few pump/pass-fakes, are you saying that's OK'?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If a post player gets the ball at the top of the lane after being in there for 2, and then turns and dribbles to the hole taking up another coupla seconds, then stops and throws in a few pump/pass-fakes, are you saying that's OK'?

Well, I tend to not start a 3 second count on players standing at the high post without the ball, so I won't know how many seconds he's been up there...but to answer your question more directly - yep, OK with me. What he does next is what I'm concerned with.