The Superintendent Husband

Smitty · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 03:43pm

Why would you blow your whistle to stop play if the assistant is standing and coaching? If he's yelling at you that's one thing, but if he's just coaching 8th graders, just tell him to have a seat and let the play continue. There's a time and a place for stopping play - your situation doesn't sound like an appropriate one.

bigdogrunnin · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 03:50pm

At any level, YOU, as an official, MUST learn to communicate effectively with coach and players, as well as administrators . . . not to mention co-officials and your table crew.

I have to agree with Smitty . . . WHY would you stop the play to warn a coach, especially an assistant coach who is COACHING! Even if it were the Head Coach, WHY? Next time down the floor, as you go by, courteously remind the head coach that he is the only person allowed to stand during play, and that his/her assistant will need to sit down. And giving him a Technical Foul would have made the situation SO much worse. That is a TOOL you have at your disposal, but just because it is there doesn't mean you need to whip it out every chance you get.

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 04:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

That is a TOOL you have at your disposal, but just because it is there doesn't mean you need to whip it out every chance you get.

"Dont whip it out every chance you get"? Interesting. Does that mean that you're telling officials to sometimes ignore the POE's in the back of the rule book.....specifically POE 5A in this year's rule book? As also opposed to POE 1D on the same subject in last year's rulebook too?

"Assistant coaches must be seated at all times except during time-outs, to attend to an injured player after being beckoned and to spontaneously react to a play. The rules that apply to a head coach to arise in certain situations(time-outs, confer with table personnel for a correctable error, dealing with disqualifications) do not apply to assistant coaches under any circumstances. Again, the fact that an assistant coach is "only coaching" has no bearing on the rule or enforcement".

Or am I misinterpreting your meaning?

Smitty · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 04:32pm

Keep in mind this was an 8th grade game.

bigdogrunnin · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 05:27pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"Dont whip it out every chance you get"? Interesting. Does that mean that you're telling officials to sometimes ignore the POE's in the back of the rule book.....specifically POE 5A in this year's rule book? As also opposed to POE 1D on the same subject in last year's rulebook too?. . . Or am I misinterpreting your meaning?

Hi JR. The answer is NO. We are not ignoring the POE's in the Rule Book, and we are not playing down their importance either. We are using communication as a way to manage the situation and the game. In fact, I am one of the few officials in my Chapter and in our area that actually enforces the coaching box, and bench decorum. (Several of our more "esteemed" officials have gone as far as to chastise me for being such a stickler of the rules.)

In the example, the Asst. Coach was up coaching, for how long I don't know. If he was up for very long though, he definitely would be given a warning. How long is that? Depends on each individual official.

Personally, if I make my way up and down the floor (2-man) L to T, back to L, and I am on my way back to the T again and that Asst. Coach is still standing, I will say something to the Head Coach about their assistant(s). Next time the issue arises, they get the "T." I will admit though, that I am very hesitant to give out "T" in that situation. I would rather talk a coach out of a call like that. I know that it is the rule, but . . . that is just me.

TrueRookie . . . to answer about a coach's warning being placed in the book, the answer is no. I am aware of no specific rule which covers this issue. Some officials do this to keep a "written" log of the fact.

Jurassic Referee · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 06:08pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

In the example, the Asst. Coach was up coaching, for how long I don't know. If he was up for very long though, he definitely would be given a warning. How long is that? Depends on each individual official.

That's the problem right there imo, Dog. Assistant coaches don't really know what to expect; there's no consistency coming from the officials. One game they might be able to wander the whole game; the next game they might get "T"d in a NY minute.

It's no different than some other calls that seem to turn up as POE's every year also. A prime example is the use of hands by a defender. Some officials call it by the POE; some officials wouldn't call it that way ever. Meanwhile, the defender doesn't know what he can get away with from game to game.

I certainly can see where rookie officials can get confused. They're getting different officials telling them to call it different ways. That's gotta be frustrating as hell.

tomegun · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 07:05am

Wow, I read through this whole thread and got confused; I had to look back and see if Truerookie was the OP or Deecee was the OP.
If something is a POE every year there is a reason for it. Bigdog, apparently the Federation has determined it necessary to make this part of a POE. Communication must have failed. As stated earlier, there isn't consistency with how bench decorum is handled. Stopping the game is not the answer. I would just mention something to the head coach in passing and continue on my way. IMO, talking to an assistant coach is out of the question - for the most (99%) of the time I will talk to an assistant coach when they become a head coach. Oh, I will greet them before games and tell them where the ball will be put into play during a timeout. That is about it.
Wow, two (2) T's in four years. Did you say something like you tried to avoid one of those two? I find it hard to believe an official can officiate for four years and only come across two coaches that earn technical fouls. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying you are very fortunate...or you should have given out more T's.

Ref_ Fred · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 07:37am

True rookie, You could have stopped the game at any point before they stole the ball. Why did you blow your whistle when they had a steal and possible break away? The next dead ball could have been a more appropriate time. Was the coach or the bench warned before that point. Just IMO. I'm sure there are different ways that it could have been handled..

Junker · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 09:04am

My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him. I would definitely NOT stop the game to sit him down unless I did it with a T. In this situation, I would take a second and tell the HC that I understand his assistant is coaching, but we need him on the bench. If he continues to get up, use the whistle and sit him down. Another thing to remember is that this is an 8th grade assistant. This is not the more professional coach you get at higher levels. He probably just got excited and wasn't thinking. Try to talk your way out of it if you can. Now, if an assistant at any level stands up to complain, whack them on site.

GoodwillRef · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junker

My point of view, first of all, it's an 8th grade game. As long as the coach is up coaching and not being a butt, I don't have a huge problem with him. I would definitely NOT stop the game to sit him down unless I did it with a T. In this situation, I would take a second and tell the HC that I understand his assistant is coaching, but we need him on the bench. If he continues to get up, use the whistle and sit him down. Another thing to remember is that this is an 8th grade assistant. This is not the more professional coach you get at higher levels. He probably just got excited and wasn't thinking. Try to talk your way out of it if you can. Now, if an assistant at any level stands up to complain, whack them on site.

It's an 8th grade game so you aren't going to enforce the bench rule, that is stupid. So when the next referee has him and he tells him to sit down he will say Junker let me stand up! It is against the rules in a 1st grade game and a HS game, enforce the rule.

Junker · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 09:25am

It's not stupid and I didn't say don't enforce bench decorum. What I said was he stood to coach. Remind him to sit and move on. It's 8th grade and those players need to be coached. They are learning to play the game. If you read carefully I stated that if he's up complaining, take care of business immediately. To officiate well I think you have to develop game managment skills. If you are out there T'ing up an 8th grade assistant for trying to teach his players without asking him to sit first, you are going to be on that 8th grade game for quite some time.

BktBallRef · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

TrueRookie . . . to answer about a coach's warning being placed in the book, the answer is no. I am aware of no specific rule which covers this issue. Some officials do this to keep a "written" log of the fact.

There are states, and local associations, that mandate that a warning be placed in the book when a coach is warned for any type of bench issue.

tomegun · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 01:43pm

Deecee,

That is good reading. I didn't have any popcorn, but I did have some pretzels! It seems like you are speaking with 4 years of experience and IMO that isn't enough (in this case). I don't know if you've been in enough situations.

Donnee Gray always says he can help an official reduce the amount of T's they give but he can't give someone the courage to call a T.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between communication and letting a coach get away with anything. The bottom line is it sounds like you are stroking players and coaches too much instead of breaking them off a T. But that is just my 2 cents.

Jurassic Referee · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 27, 2006, 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomegun

Donnee Gray always says he can help an official reduce the amount of T's they give but he can't give someone the courage to call a T.

Keep in mind, there is a difference between communication and letting a coach get away with anything.

Donnee Gray is a wise man.

Contrary to what some officials seem to believe, in the vast majority of cases when a technical foul gets called, it isn't the official's fault. You're not a failure as an official if you do have to call one. It's simply a reaction to an unsporting act, a technical violation of some sort or a player just doing something stupid- like hanging on the rim. It's also just another call.

truerookie · #15 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 26, 2006, 03:52pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty

Why would you blow your whistle to stop play if the assistant is standing and coaching? If he's yelling at you that's one thing, but if he's just coaching 8th graders, just tell him to have a seat and let the play continue. There's a time and a place for stopping play - your situation doesn't sound like an appropriate one.

Smiity, I could not agree with you more with one exception. He does not have to be yelling at me to get my attention. I look at bench decorum as part of game management.