Submitting the roster before the game

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The kid mighta been having a dump.

Maybe it's a regional thing, but in our area the kid's taking a dump.

Which I've never understood anyway, because I wouldn't want to take it, I'd want to leave it.

Does Bob agree?

Nevermind.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is no rule which require a team member to be present for the pregame warmup period or at any other time prior to his actual entry into the game.

I count 12 players and there are at least 12 names in the book I am happy. It there are 14 names I am happy, if there are 10-11 names then we have a problem, end of story.

Officiating basketball is hard enough already, let's not make it more difficult than it has to be.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Anyway, back to your comment about counting players - I can't imagine the Fed. wants us to be so strict as to only allow the players we actually see dressed as the only one to be allowed in the game. What if one of them is back in the locker room getting their ankles taped? Or they're under the stands making out with a cheerleader? Even better, what if the coach takes the team back to the locker room for the final chalk session when you're checking the book? Does that mean you can't allow any of the players, because you didn't actually see them when you were officially checking the book?

Sometimes nits need to be picked, but not this time.

So I still agree with Bob.

You must have misunderstood my comment. I completely agree with Bob. The kid can go get taped, take a dump, leave a dump, have a nap or go hold up a liquor store during pregame.

I was just answering *your* question, in a somewhat disagreeable manner.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is no rule which require a team member to be present for the pregame warmup period or at any other time prior to his actual entry into the game.

True, but if he's not even at the game site, how is he "eligible to become a player"?

Just so everybody knows, I agree with the "common sense" answer. And I'm glad to be told a common sense way to deal with the question within the rules. But the question was raised because the language of 3-2-1 changed a few years ago. It used to say that you had to submit a list of all "squad members", which was not defined. Now it refers to "team members" which is very clearly defined.

In any case, I think Bob's response that there's no restriction against listing non-team members is a good one. Maybe at my next girls' game, Jennifer Aniston will be on the roster.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

True, but if he's not even at the game site, how is he "eligible to become a player"?

Just so everybody knows, I agree with the "common sense" answer. And I'm glad to be told a common sense way to deal with the question within the rules. But the question was raised because the language of 3-2-1 changed a few years ago. It used to say that you had to submit a list of all "squad members", which was not defined. Now it refers to "team members" which is very clearly defined.

In any case, I think Bob's response that there's restriction against listing non-team members is a good one. Maybe at my next girls' game, Jennifer Aniston will be on the roster.

It does not say he needs to be dressed and ready to play 10 minutes prior to the game to be a team member, as your interpretation implies.

It just says he just needs to be dressed and ready to play. Time unspecified.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

It does not say he needs to be dressed and ready to play 10 minutes prior to the game to be a team member, as your interpretation implies.

It just says he just needs to be dressed and ready to play. Time unspecified.

That's kind of silly, I think. On that interpretation, anybody who ever dressed for that school is a team member. Heck, I played for the Gremlins in '68. I was suited and ready to play. I must be a team member. Put my name in the book, Coach!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

That's kind of silly, I think. On that interpretation, anybody who ever dressed for that school is a team member. Heck, I played for the Gremlins in '68. I was suited and ready to play. I must be a team member. Put my name in the book, Coach!

Huh?

You mean to say someone who was dressed and ready to play in '68 is dressed and ready to play in tonight's game?

Talk about silly...

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Huh?

You mean to say someone who was dressed and ready to play in '68 is dressed and ready to play in tonight's game?

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

Did I say THAT? Hold on, let me go check...

....OK I'm back. Nope, didn't say that. I said "Time unspecified".

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

errr...I hesitate to say this because I'm sure it's a trick question...but here goes...he'll be ready to play when he's in the building and sitting on the bench, will he not? The rule does not specify that he MUST be dressed and ready to play WHEN his name goes in the book. It just says he MUST be dressed and ready to play to get his name in the book for that game. It does not specify the time during or prior to the game WHEN he must be dressed and ready to play (time unspecified). And if you can't seem to wrap your arms around that concept try this: there's no penalty defined for a coach who puts a name in the book because he thinks a kid *might* be dressed and ready to play but never shows up. There's just a penalty if the coach does NOT put the kid's name in the book and plays him later.

[RookieDude]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

You're the one who said there was no time limit!!!

And if you don't like that example, how is a kid who's not even at the building yet (coming late from another activity) dressed and ready to play? Should that kid be in the book?

Chuck...this happens sometimes in our region.

The kid is playing a couple quarters of Junior Varsity ball, at another building, and the game is running late. He is eligible to play in the Varsity game and therefore, his name is in the book. He may not even be there when the game starts...but, he is eligible to play when he gets to the Varsity site.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Did I say THAT? Hold on, let me go check...

....OK I'm back. Nope, didn't say that. I said "Time unspecified".

And the difference is? "No time limit" and "no time limit specified" are pretty much equivalent in our context, aren't they?

I hesitate to say this because I'm sure it's a trick question...but here goes...he'll be ready to play when he's in the building and sitting on the bench, will he not?

Yes, of course. No dispute. (In fact, you realize, I hope, that there's no actual dispute here at all, right? You and I are going to handle this exactly the same way, regardless of whether we agree on the exact wording of the rule.)

The rule does not specify that he MUST be dressed and ready to play WHEN his name goes in the book.

But it does seem to specify that. You have to submit the roster at a certain time. And the roster has to have team members on it. If you're not dressed and eligible to become a player when the roster is submitted, how can you be a team member?

It does not specify the time during or prior to the game WHEN he must be dressed and ready to play (time unspecified).

So it could be 1968?

there's no penalty defined for a coach who puts a name in the book because he thinks a kid *might* be dressed and ready to play but never shows up.

True, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. There's no penalty for wearing earrings, but you're not allowed to play with them in.

Again, the loophole is that the rule doesn't prohibit non-team-members from being in the book. So this whole discussion is moo. (It's like a cow's opinion. It's a moo point. -- Joey Tribbiani) But if the loophole weren't there, I think we might have to say that only the players at the site could go in the book.

[JRutledge]

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this? Do what the people you work for say. If they are in the book, they can play whether they are there or not. If that is hard to understand, then ask the people you work for and see what the normal practice is where you live. I could see there being some state rule that requires some kind of eligibility. Other than that the NF does not address this in as much detail as you would like. I am going to assume that there is "no time limit" with people that are still eligible. That would exclude folks that have graduated or are not of the proper age to still play (or whatever eligibility rules that might affect who plays on a team of any kind). So if the kid is eligible to play at a particular school and they are in the book, you should let them play. Not very hard to understand for most of us that officiate basketball.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this? Do what the people you work for say. If they are in the book, they can play whether they are there or not. If that is hard to understand, then ask the people you work for and see what the normal practice is where you live. I could see there being some state rule that requires some kind of eligibility. Other than that the NF does not address this in as much detail as you would like. I am going to assume that there is "no time limit" with people that are still eligible. That would exclude folks that have graduated or are not of the proper age to still play (or whatever eligibility rules that might affect who plays on a team of any kind). So if the kid is eligible to play at a particular school and they are in the book, you should let them play. Not very hard to understand for most of us that officiate basketball.

Peace

And even if they are not eligible (suspended from school; insufficient GPA; 5th year Senior, etc) , is it our job (or business) to make that determination and take action?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And if even there are not eligible (suspended from school; insufficient GPA; 5th year Senior, etc) , is it our job (or business) to make that determination and take action?

No, it's not. I had this very situation come up many moons ago, where a coach came up and told me a player on the other team wasn't eligible. My partner and I checked with the other coach, and he admitted the player was not eligible. So we shot the T, and went on with the game. We found out afterward from the state office that this is not under the officials' jurisdiction, but an issue between the schools and state office. There is no game penalty or inforcement in place. If one school wants to press the issue, then there could be more suspensions, or a game forfeiture, but nothing in place for the game officials to enforce.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

And the difference is? "No time limit" and "no time limit specified" are pretty much equivalent in our context, aren't they?

Sure, they are very equivalent, but those are not my words.

I said "no time specified". As in the issue of time in any context is simply not addressed. I didn't say "no time limit specified".

True, but that doesn't mean it's allowed. There's no penalty for wearing earrings, but you're not allowed to play with them in.

errr....and you're saying WHAT, exactly, is NOT allowed in our discussion again? You're saying a coach can't write a player's name down in the book unless he's dressed & ready to play? What if he's dressed but injured? Can he write the name in the book?