Submitting the roster before the game

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Chuck,

You are really concerned about this?

Good grief, no, I'm not! How many times do I have to say that I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you? Here it is one more time: I'm going to handle it exactly the same way as the rest of you!!!

I'm merely interested in how this might be handled if Bob's "loophole" weren't in place. The only question I think is mildly curious is whether a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site is a team member, given that he is neither dressed nor ready to play.

[JRutledge]

Lighten up. I am just giving you a little grief about it. It is kind a funny discussion but nothing that is serious. I thought IAABO Rules Interpreters would know the answer to this.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I said "no time specified". As in the issue of time in any context is simply not addressed. I didn't say "no time limit specified".

Well, then you're granting my point about players from 1968 being team members.

errr....and you're saying WHAT, exactly, is NOT allowed in our discussion again? You're saying a coach can't write a player's name down in the book unless he's dressed & ready to play?

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

That's not a bif if. This is: IF
Anyway, I would think the Fed. purposely left the term "eligible" a little vague, so they wouldn't have to get into issues such as grades, suspensions from fighting, 20 miles away vs. "in the parking lot", what's considered "in" the lot vs. the driveway, etc., etc, ad nauseum. And in the case of grades, suspensions, and other "eligibility" issues, it's not our jurisdiction. So we don't need to rule if the names in the book are eligible, just whether they can play in the game once they stand on that X.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

IF (a big "if", I grant you) the rule read that ONLY team members could be written in the book, then I'm wondering if a kid in a car 20 miles from the game site could be included in the book, since he's not dressed and not eligible to become a player.

Since time is not addressed at all with respect to these rules I would say he's eligible whenever he arrives dressed in the gym and the coach has every right to write his name in the book before the 10 minute mark. (If the coach wants to put your name in the book because you played in '68 there's nothing to stop him btw...time is not addressed. But you'll need to explain to your assignor why your name appears in the boxscore as a player and an official, won't you?)

Further, if the coach writes him into the book there is no penalty if the kid decides he wants to go visit little Suzy or hold up a liquor store (or even both) instead of show up for the game. Why no penalty you ask? Because time is not addressed.

But you ignored my question: what if A1 is dressed and injures himself during warmups just prior to the 10 minute mark (ie not ready at the 10 minute mark). Are you saying the coach should NOT put his name in the book?

What if A1 injures himself at the 9 minute mark? Does the coach have to take A1's name out of the book & be given a T?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

But you ignored my question: what if A1 is dressed and injures himself during warmups just prior to the 10 minute mark (ie not ready at the 10 minute mark). Are you saying the coach should NOT put his name in the book?

The player is still eligible to become a player. He would be allowed in the book. You keep using the phrase "ready to play", but that's not in the rule. The rule says "eligible to become a player". It doesn't matter if he's ready. It only matters if he's dressed and eligible to become a player.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

The player is still eligible to become a player. He would be allowed in the book. You keep using the phrase "ready to play", but that's not in the rule. The rule says "eligible to become a player". It doesn't matter if he's ready. It only matters if he's dressed and eligible to become a player.

Then all that really matters is if he/she is dressed.

"Eligible to become a player" speaks to the future and in a non-deterministic way. Said person might become (in the future) a player when he takes the floor for the opening tip-off. Said person might become (in the future) a player some time during the third quarter when he/she finally gets to the gym. But even more than that, it doesn't require the team member to actually become a player, ever. Merely that he/she is eligible to become a player.

If, for purposes of this rule, eligible isn't about grades, suspensions, fights, etc., then what does it mean to be eligible? The best as I can come up with is that eligible, in this context, merely means that the coach has given assent to put that person's name on the line up.

The opposite case, of course, is that a person the coach wants to become a player, but whose name was not included in the line up, must be added to the line up at the cost of a technical foul. Once the person's name is added, he/she is eligible to become a player.

Name on line up = eligible to become a player

So that leaves just the dressed issue. How you are to determine that without inspecting uniforms, I don't know. There is no provision in basketball rules for a formal equipment inspection. So I guess you have no better option than to assume the player is legally attired an equiped, as the coach will attest to, until such time as you observe that he/she is not.

[26 Year Gap]

Maybe at my next girls' game, Jennifer Aniston will be on the roster.


Watch the players on the floor, not who MIGHT be on the bench.

[BayStateRef]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Fine. But 4-34-4 defines a team member as "a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player."

My board interpreter (who probably was in on Chuck's conference call) issued this same ruling last year. I thought he was wrong then -- and I still do.

While 4-34-4 defines "team member," it also refers to "bench personnel," which are defined a few paragraphs earlyer in 4-34-2. This is what separates "team member" from "bench personnel." Bench personnel includes substitutes, coaches, statisticians, managers or precisely "all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team." Team member merely distinguishes from that motley cast of characters by recognizing that some will (or could) get into a game and some could not (the coaches, managers and statisticians, I would suggest.)

When I show up at a gym for a high school game, or an AAU game or a youth travel league game, it is none of my business -- by rule -- who plays. I don't hold tryouts, I don't check transcripts, I don't see birth certificates. The schools and their associations (or the tournament sponsors) are responsible for that. My job is to make sure the contest on the court is played by the rules of basketball -- none of which cover things like age, district boundaries, or whether a kid played a half in the JV game and thus can play only one half of the varsity game. If one team cheats and puts "ineligible" players on the court, it is not my job to do anything about it.

A wise official once instructed me: "Why go looking for trouble?" That is all that you get if you accept this interpretation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

The player is still eligible to become a player. He would be allowed in the book. You keep using the phrase "ready to play", but that's not in the rule. The rule says "eligible to become a player". It doesn't matter if he's ready. It only matters if he's dressed and eligible to become a player.

OK.

Is a dressed injured player "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a dressed player in the locker room until the game starts "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a dressed player running thru the hallway at the start of the game "eligible"? If not why not?

If so...is a player pulling his car into the school parking lot at the start of the game "eligible" when he later arrives dressed in the gym? If not why not?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If so...is a player pulling his car into the school parking lot at the start of the game "eligible" when he later arrives dressed in the gym?

It just seems to me that the roster information submitted at the 10-minute mark is supposed to be the players that are -- at that time -- dressed and eligible. I honestly don't understand the rationale behind "he can be eligible later".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

It just seems to me that the roster information submitted at the 10-minute mark is supposed to be the players that are -- at that time -- dressed and eligible. I honestly don't understand the rationale behind "he can be eligible later".

Based on what?

We already agreed that the rule does not address timing.

[Jimgolf]

Sorry to be so late on this, but the local board's interpretor answered this on the board's website, and I thought his answer was informative.

Question #73 on the refresher dealt with a player missing the bus for a game and the coach putting his name in the book even though he was not there. The answer was that you could not put his name in the book and the rule used was Rule 3 Section 2 ART 1 and Rule 4 Sec 34 Art 4. Basically the rule states that starters and team members must be in the book 10 min before the start of the game. Team members are defined as bench personnel in uniform and are ready to play. Any one that has taken the class for the last 10 years should remember me saying that this guy that writes the test is a moron. However one of the interpreters wrote him about this question and here was his answer.

By rule it is not legal and the question has to be answered by rule. However we as officials have always told the coach to put names in the book so if a player gets to a game late we would not have to assess a technical foul. The rules committee can make any rule they want but we as officials have to administer them using common sense. Common sense prevails in this situation. Put the name in the book as we have always done. No one will have a problem with it. Keep in mind that it can be backed up with the technical infraction rule which states that the official should forestall or overlook technical infractions which are obviously unintentional and have no affect on the game.

[JRutledge]

The rule is to submit the players name to the table or scorer. The rule does not require anyone to put them in the book before 10 minutes. If that was the case, many tournaments would always have a T to start the game.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Sorry to be so late on this, but the local board's interpretor answered this on the board's website, and I thought his answer was informative.

It might be informative, but that don't make it correct.

IAABO rules interpretations aren't valid unless IAABO happens to be a state's governing rules body. That doesn't make that ruling valid in any other states though. And IAAO refresher exam or not, I disagree completely with their exam answer and I also disagree that the rule cited to back that answer is valid. There is no definitive rule in the FED rule book making that practise illegal.