Tip on shot rebound

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

How about when batting the ball to the ground? Doesn't this establish the start of a dribble, hence control?

Nevada already posted this, but I'll throw it up here again:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

Then why does the reference specifically say "away from other players"?

If "NOTE 2" makes a distinction, why ignore it?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

Then why does the reference specifically say "away from other players"?

It means "to keep it away" from other players. It doesn't mean "in a direction opposite" from other players.

When you played "Keep Away" as a kid, did you always throw the ball in a direction that was opposite from the kid who was it? No, you throw it any direction as long as that kid doesn't get the ball. Same thing here. Direction is irrelevant. The point of the note is that the player is batting the ball to keep it away from other players.

You're trying too hard on this one, Jim.

[lukealex]

Had this happen in a game a couple days ago.

After a shot, ball gets tipped around, no team control. Ball is about to go out of bounds but is saved by A1 who "scoops" the ball to save it just like a bowling ball would be thrown. The ball doesn't touch anybody until A2 retrieves the ball in the backcourt.

Would the scoop be considered control?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by lukealex

Had this happen in a game a couple days ago.

After a shot, ball gets tipped around, no team control. Ball is about to go out of bounds but is saved by A1 who "scoops" the ball to save it just like a bowling ball would be thrown. The ball doesn't touch anybody until A2 retrieves the ball in the backcourt.

Would the scoop be considered control?

Would you have granted A1 a TO if s/he had requested it during the "scoop?"

[lukealex]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Would you have granted A1 a TO if s/he had requested it during the "scoop?"

Never thought about it like that, good point. I don't think I would have granted a TO.

Thanks

[Mark Padgett]

I always thought that when there was no team control, team control was then established when a player establishes player control, which is defined as holding or dribbling a live ball inbounds. Tapping is not holding, scooping (IMO) is holding, pushing a ball downward to the court to start a dribble is dribbling.

This "test" has always worked for me. Comments?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Nevada already posted this, but I'll throw it up here again:

4-15-4 NOTE 2: A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.

As I said earlier, the direction of the bat is not relevant.

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

It means "to keep it away" from other players. It doesn't mean "in a direction opposite" from other players.

When you played "Keep Away" as a kid, did you always throw the ball in a direction that was opposite from the kid who was it? No, you throw it any direction as long as that kid doesn't get the ball. Same thing here. Direction is irrelevant. The point of the note is that the player is batting the ball to keep it away from other players.

You're trying too hard on this one, Jim.

What you are in essence saying, is that "when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it" is the same as when he/she bats a rebound toward another player.

Clearly, this is not the case.

All I'm saying is that a player can tap a ball with or without control and an experienced official can tell the difference, and should be able to use his/her own judgment to make the call.

[Nevadaref]

Jim,
If a player bats the ball toward one of his teammates then isn't he batting it AWAY from opponents (other players)?

Also, a player can certainly bat a ball toward an empty area on the floor to keep it away from opponents (other players) and then go get it. Would you judge that to be a case of player control?

However, here is something that helps your case:

RULE 4, SECTION 31 PASS
A pass is movement of the ball caused by a player who throws, bats or rolls the ball to another player.

A pass is something done by a player in control right?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A pass is something done by a player in control right?

Sure glad that you added that smilie there.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

What you are in essence saying, is that "when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it" is the same as when he/she bats a rebound toward another player.

Um, no I'm not. I'm saying the direction of the bat (toward or away from an opponent) has no bearing whatsoever on whether it starts a dribble.

All I'm saying is that a player can tap a ball with or without control and an experienced official can tell the difference, and should be able to use his/her own judgment to make the call.

I've read this whole thread and this is the first time I've seen you say that. If that's all you're trying to say, why were you making such a big deal about the direction of the bat? (And in case, I'm still missing your point, a tap is different from a bat. A tap is a try.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

All I'm saying is that a player can tap a ball with or without control and an experienced official can tell the difference, and should be able to use his/her own judgment to make the call.

That's exactly how you define any "bat" ot "tap". There is no player control during either. If you "tap" or "bat" the ball with control, it no longer is a "bat" or a "tap". It's player control and the player must be holding it. Rule 4-12-1. The player can't have control by starting a dribble with that tap/bat either because the ball isn't being pushed to the floor.

You're either holding the ball or you're not holding it. If you're not holding it, there is no player control.