foul out and free throws with a T

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Read the case book play that I cited- 2.10.4. That should change your mind.

Iow, you're wrong. I'm right. And worse, JRut was right also.

You mean the rulebook extraordinaire who posted all that crap cannot read a simple casebook play? Naaaaaaawwwwwwoooooaaaaaa.

Peace

[ChuckElias]

2.10.4 is not germane to the play in the original post. In 2.10.4, A1 is fouled and A2 takes the FTs. In the play under discussion here, A1 is fouled and A1 shoots the FTs.

The relevant rule is 4-14-2. A1 is not DQ'd until Coach A is notified of A1's fifth foul. A1 continues to be a player until that happens. So we have a player shooting FTs that he is entitled to (since he was the player that was fouled). There has been no error. The FTs stand, and the player is removed as soon as the mistake (not "error") is discovered.

Case 4.14.1C is the closest match, although the opponent is shooting the FTs. The FT that is already shot stands, then the DQ'd player is replaced and the game is resumed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

2.10.4 is not germane to the play in the original post. In 2.10.4, A1 is fouled and A2 takes the FTs. In the play under discussion here, A1 is fouled and A1 shoots the FTs..

The relevant rule is 4-14-2. A1 is not DQ'd until Coach A is notified of A1's fifth foul. A1 continues to be a player until that happens. So we have a player shooting FTs that he is entitled to (since he was the player that was fouled). There has been no error. The FTs stand, and the player is removed as soon as the mistake (not "error") is discovered.

Case 4.14.1C is the closest match, although the opponent is shooting the FTs. The FT that is already shot stands, then the DQ'd player is replaced and the game is resumed.

Case book play 2-10-4 suresasheck is relevant. That case play talks about a wrong player being allowed to shoot FT's. Player A is the wrong player in the op.

How can case play 4.14.1C be relevant in any way, shape or form? In that case play, the DEFENDER fouled out, NOT the SHOOTER. Apples and oranges.

We're talking about a wrong player being allowed to shoot FT's that he didn't really have coming because of disqualification, Chuck.

In the original post, player A was fouled. Player A also fouled out before he could shoot the 2 FT's that he had coming. The replacement for player A is supposed to shoot both of A's original FT's. Ergo, if player A was allowed to shoot any FT's, he was the wrong player to do so; his replacement was the right player, by rule. Sez so right in rule 8-2- "The freethrows awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute shall attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available". Iow, because a wrong player shot the FT's, as per R2-10-1(c), we have a correctable error. That correctable error was caught in time, as per R2-10-2. It was also supposed to be corrected as per R2-10-4, which states that any FT's taken by a wrong player are cancelled.

You and Nevada are trying to bring in rules that ain't really relevant to this sitch.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 2-10-4 suresasheck is relevant. That case play talks about a wrong player being allowed to shoot FT's. Player A is the wrong player in the op.

...

We're talking about a wrong player being allowed to shoot FT's that he didn't really have coming because of disqualification, Chuck.

In the original post, player A was fouled. Player A also fouled out before he could shoot the 2 FT's that he had coming. The replacement for player A is supposed to shoot both of A's original FT's. Ergo, if player A was allowed to shoot any FT's, he was the wrong player to do so; his replacement was the right player, by rule. Sez so right in rule 8-2- "The freethrows awarded because of a personal foul shall be attempted by the offended player. If such player must withdraw because of an injury or disqualification, his/her substitute shall attempt the throw(s) unless no substitute is available". Iow, because a wrong player shot the FT's, as per R2-10-1(c), we have a correctable error. That correctable error was caught in time, as per R2-10-2. It was also supposed to be corrected as per R2-10-4, which states that any FT's taken by a wrong player are cancelled.

There is no error in this situation. Player A may have committed the foul that should have fouled him out before the FTs but the rules quite clearly indicate that the player doesn't actually foul (become disqualified) out until the coach is notified. As such, there was no disqualification to force the player to withdraw and the correct player (the one who was fouled) shot the free throws. Only when that player has legally been disqualified does his substitute become the correct shooter. Any actions that occur prior to that point in time are valid.

[Jurassic Referee]

Case Book Play 4.14.1 SITUATION A: DISQUALIFICATION

A1 is fouled by B1 while team A is in the bonus. The covering official is at the table reporting the foul when A1 is charged with a technical foul by thje official who is observing the players. The foul on A1 is his/her fifth.
RULING: A1 is disqualified as both personal and technical fouls are counted. Because A1 has been disqualified, he/she will not be allowed to attempt the free throw(s) resulting from B1's foul. The substitute for A1 will shoot the free throw(s). (8-2)

And if A1's substitute doesn't shoot the free throws, it now becomes a correctable error under rule 2-10, yada, yada, yada......

Do you people honestly feel that the FED intended to throw the correctable error rule and everything else that I cited down the toilet just because a disqualified player wasn't notified? He was still disqualified, wasn't he?

Unless you can tie the language of 4-14-2 into this specific situation, and also come up with something that sez that rule trumps everything else cited so far in the rule or case books, then I ain't buying it.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

He was still disqualified, wasn't he?

No, he wasn't. This is made explicit in 4-14-2. I don't see how you can set this rule aside.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case Book Play 4.14.1 SITUATION A: DISQUALIFICATION

Just to add one more thought. Your case play deals with a player who fouled out and was disqualified. The case play I cited has to do with a player who fouled out but was not disqualified. In my case, the action before the player was properly DQ'd was allowed to stand. That's what I think is similar to the play under discussion.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case Book Play 4.14.1 SITUATION A: DISQUALIFICATION

A1 is fouled by B1 while team A is in the bonus. The covering official is at the table reporting the foul when A1 is charged with a technical foul by thje official who is observing the players. The foul on A1 is his/her fifth.
RULING: A1 is disqualified as both personal and technical fouls are counted. Because A1 has been disqualified, he/she will not be allowed to attempt the free throw(s) resulting from B1's foul. The substitute for A1 will shoot the free throw(s). (8-2)

And if A1's substitute doesn't shoot the free throws, it now becomes a correctable error under rule 2-10, yada, yada, yada......

Do you people honestly feel that the FED intended to throw the correctable error rule and everything else that I cited down the toilet just because a disqualified player wasn't notified? He was still disqualified, wasn't he?

Lah me.....

NO! He was not.

This case is only marginally relevant in our situation; it only matters in the situation where the disqualification occurs before the FTs are taken. A1 is not disqualified until the coach is notified....you can't throw that rule out just to make your argument work. Until A1 is disqualified, A1 is the correct player to shoot the FTs. It doesn't matter what should have happened. A late disqualification is not a correctable situation.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

We're talking about a wrong player being allowed to shoot FT's that he didn't really have coming because of disqualification, Chuck.

This is exactly where you are incorrect, JR. He never was disqualified. Therefore, he is an eligible player throwing a live ball into the basket. That can't be undone b/c he was supposed to be disqualified. Failing to DQ a player is not a correctable error. My rule citation above is the relevant one to this play, as Camron just pointed out.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

My rule citation above is the relevant one to this play, as Camron just pointed out.

And I think that you, Camron and Nevada are completely wrong too.

Guess we need an NFHS ruling from somewhere(and please don't give me an IAABO ruling or a ruling from some rules interpreter out in Portland who doesn't have any stroke either; they're about as official as I am).

This mighta been a good one to send in to the FED....way back.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Guess we need an NFHS ruling from somewhere

FED 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1:

SITUATION 6: A1 is fouled and Team A is in the bonus. Before A1 attempts the one-and-one, A1 is whistled for a technical foul for taunting. A1 goes to the free-throw line to attempt the one-and-one with no players lined up. A1 makes the first free thtrow, then the horn sounds and the scorer indicates that A1's technical foul was the fifth foul on A1. RULING: The result of A1's first free throw shall stand and A1's replacement shall attempt the remaining free throw (if the first was successful), before Team B shoots its technical free throws. COMMENT: This is not a correctable error for a wrong player attempting a free throw. A1 was not officially disqualified until the coach was notified.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1:

SITUATION 6: A1 is fouled and Team A is in the bonus. Before A1 attempts the one-and-one, A1 is whistled for a technical foul for taunting. A1 goes to the free-throw line to attempt the one-and-one with no players lined up. A1 makes the first free thtrow, then the horn sounds and the scorer indicates that A1's technical foul was the fifth foul on A1. RULING: The result of A1's first free throw shall stand and A1's replacement shall attempt the remaining free throw (if the first was successful), before Team B shoots its technical free throws. COMMENT: This is not a correctable error for a wrong player attempting a free throw. A1 was not officially disqualified until the coach was notified.

That'll do it for me.

I stand corrected. Good catch, Bob.

Those rulings usually go into the next year's case book. That one didn't. Wonder why.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

FED 2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations, Supplement #1:

After I shut off the computer last night, I also remembered that this play is specifically covered in the NCAA rulebook as an AR in the rule section for "Disqualification".