Bringing in a Sub after free throws.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

M&M, that is not true. We use a lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified. For example the how we administer the ball on the end line is different than what it says in the NF Official's Manual. Also when the NF could not decide for a few years whether to long switch or not to long switch, we were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch.

I also go to the camp of our Head Clinician every year. He openly tells people that his way is the way the IHSA is doing things. And openly talks about how many clinicians across the state are teaching mechanics that are not the "correct way."

Peace

Ok, now I'm confused - you say there are a "lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified". Besides the endline positioning, what other mechanics are being taught by the IHSA clinicians that are not in the Fed. manual? The reason I'm asking is we have had both Kurt Gibson and Beth Sauser of the IHSA speak at our association meetings, at separate times, and they have specifically said they want all the prescribed Fed. mechanics used. They also said if they observe an official not use the prescribed mechanics, it could hurt their chances to appear or advance in the post-season.

I just wonder if there are some clinicians that feel "their way" is better than what the Fed. prescribes. But doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a uniform way of doing things? Ok, maybe there's some merit to doing things differently - for example, I did like the "no long switches" mechanic from college. But since I was doing HS, I settled for doing it the way the Fed. prescribed (grumbling every time I did it, of course), because that was the way other HS officials who I worked with did it. I was glad when the Fed. finally changed it, but until they did, I followed what they said.

I will agree with your statment on many clinicians not teaching the proper mechanics. I have even personally seen state final-level officials, who are also clinicians, teach that "flexing" isn't all that important.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now I'm confused - you say there are a "lot of mechanics that are not listed in the book or are modified". Besides the endline positioning, what other mechanics are being taught by the IHSA clinicians that are not in the Fed. manual? The reason I'm asking is we have had both Kurt Gibson and Beth Sauser of the IHSA speak at our association meetings, at separate times, and they have specifically said they want all the prescribed Fed. mechanics used. They also said if they observe an official not use the prescribed mechanics, it could hurt their chances to appear or advance in the post-season.

I am not saying we do not use most NF Mechanics, I am telling you there are things we use that are not "by the letter or book" NF mechanics. And from year to year the clinicians get together and come up with things that need to be done better. That brings changes like not bouncing the ball on the end line. That specific mechanic has been used for at least 4 years or so and Harry Bohn was adamant that you do not bounce the ball on the end line, because officials were going up court before the ball was in place. I also described the long switch situation that changed and the NF was going back and forth as to what to do. Beth and Kurt run their respective sports, but Harry has a lot of say as to what mechanics are used. I know Kurt pretty much goes along with what Harry states or makes a mechanic. I can also speak as a multiple sport official in football and baseball and we use a lot of mechanics that are only found on the PowerPoint Presentation with mechanics.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I just wonder if there are some clinicians that feel "their way" is better than what the Fed. prescribes. But doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a uniform way of doing things? Ok, maybe there's some merit to doing things differently - for example, I did like the "no long switches" mechanic from college. But since I was doing HS, I settled for doing it the way the Fed. prescribed (grumbling every time I did it, of course), because that was the way other HS officials who I worked with did it. I was glad when the Fed. finally changed it, but until they did, I followed what they said.

Well if it did not come from Harry Bohn, then I might just agree with you. When I heard of these mechanics, Harry was the one actually teaching them. Harry also lives right in my back yard. I also work HS games for him and have for about 3 or 4 years. In my area officials and clinicians refer to Harry in almost God like ways when talking about mechanics and philsophy. I cannot speak for other parts of the state, but around here he has great influence and when we talk to Kurt and Beth they reference him when it comes to mechanics. Also in basketball we do not deviate from massive aspects of NF mechanics because most of the mechanics are solid and consistent with other levels in many areas.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I will agree with your statment on many clinicians not teaching the proper mechanics. I have even personally seen state final-level officials, who are also clinicians, teach that "flexing" isn't all that important.

All I can tell you is every camp Harry runs or when he speaks at meetings, he always seems to reference "What I am telling is the way we are doing this in Illinois." I have also in conversations I have had with him (not just one on one, but at a social or bar somewhere on many occasions). I would not say this if I have not heard directly from the mouths of Harry and other Clinicians about this topic. Also understand Harry picks the clinicians and he can get rid of clinicians as well. So a guy teaching their own thing might not be around if the word gets out.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Poor Derrick - I think we've hijacked his thread slightly. I hope he's learning a little about mechanics anyway.

I've heard about Harry, but I've never had the pleasure of meeting him. But the comments about doing a mechanic different than the Fed. mechanic shows my point. He feels not bouncing the ball along the endline in the backcourt is important because officials aren't staying back. Valid point, but instead of teaching a different mechanic to the officials, how about just teaching them to stay back? How do we, outside the Chicago area, find out about this if we don't attend a camp where he is the clinician? Is there an "Illinois Mechanics Differences" booklet or paper somewhere? If I get the chance to do a game up in the suburbs sometime, and he happens to watch the game, would I get critiqued for not doing the way he teaches it in Illinois?

Granted, this is a relatively minor mechanic we're talking about. But it does kind of illustrate my point about doing things differently, even within the same state. With the state requirement on only attending a clinic once every 3 years, it could be a while before a mechanic difference shows up all over the state. That doesn't even address philosophy differences, such as how a game will be called on the south side of Chicago, vs. a game in the west central part of the state. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of trying to be uniform, and giving the kids a consistantly-called game, no matter where they go?

No easy answers, just thoughts running around my head. Obviously, if Harry tells you to do this, and you work for him, that is what you will do. But it just seems like Harry is doing what IAABO does, and each different state does, that is decide they like to do things a little differently than the Fed. It would be nice if we could all do it the same. I know, and I wish the Cubs would win a World Series in my lifetime as well...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

It would be nice if we could all do it the same. I know, and I wish the Cubs would win a World Series in my lifetime as well...

Well, you got a helluva lot better chance of getting uniform mechanic usage across the country than the Cubs have of winning a World Series.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, you got a helluva lot better chance of getting uniform mechanic usage across the country than the Cubs have of winning a World Series.

It's been a while, but here goes:

Shut up.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Poor Derrick - I think we've hijacked his thread slightly. I hope he's learning a little about mechanics anyway.

I've heard about Harry, but I've never had the pleasure of meeting him. But the comments about doing a mechanic different than the Fed. mechanic shows my point. He feels not bouncing the ball along the endline in the backcourt is important because officials aren't staying back. Valid point, but instead of teaching a different mechanic to the officials, how about just teaching them to stay back? How do we, outside the Chicago area, find out about this if we don't attend a camp where he is the clinician? Is there an "Illinois Mechanics Differences" booklet or paper somewhere? If I get the chance to do a game up in the suburbs sometime, and he happens to watch the game, would I get critiqued for not doing the way he teaches it in Illinois?

There is a PowerPoint Presentation that has in the past (I have not looked over in detail of the current one) that gives many of the procedures on the IHSA Education section. Also if guys are not going to clinics every year or going to meetings on a regular basis, then shame on them if they are out of the loop. It is not like all of these things I am talking about are just subjected to clinics or the Chicago area. If the clinicians in your area have been paying attention, I am sure they know of many of these procedures. I have heard many of these differences mentioned at local association meetings. I guess it would be possible that some of the leaders in your area have dropped the ball on these things. This is why we have clinics and many of the procedures are discussed there.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Granted, this is a relatively minor mechanic we're talking about. But it does kind of illustrate my point about doing things differently, even within the same state. With the state requirement on only attending a clinic once every 3 years, it could be a while before a mechanic difference shows up all over the state. That doesn't even address philosophy differences, such as how a game will be called on the south side of Chicago, vs. a game in the west central part of the state. Doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of trying to be uniform, and giving the kids a consistantly-called game, no matter where they go?

Well one of the reasons the games are called differently has a lot to do with what kind of games are in an area. There are many more Class AA games in this area and I would think there are more college officials in the area. When you do see who works the Class AA State Finals, most of the officials do happen to come from this part of the state. I have worked a Class A Regional as well, and most of the officials that were working it with me may not have even worked a game or two at the Class A level. I think there were only 2 or 3 regionals directly in this area. I do not think you will ever completely overcome those differences.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

No easy answers, just thoughts running around my head. Obviously, if Harry tells you to do this, and you work for him, that is what you will do. But it just seems like Harry is doing what IAABO does, and each different state does, that is decide they like to do things a little differently than the Fed. It would be nice if we could all do it the same. I know, and I wish the Cubs would win a World Series in my lifetime as well...

As I stated before the NF takes the position that states can do whatever mechanics they choose to. These are mechanics, not rules issues. Also the NF does not include all areas of the game. There are many things the Official's Manual never clearly covers. So I have no problem with the IHSA using things that work. This is why they got rid of bouncing the ball on the end line.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Jeff - I'm not really quibbling with the fact that the Fed. allows states to make changes. I was just hoping for that little Utopian world where all basketball officials get to have the same mechanics while calling the same rules, no matter where they are.

I guess where I have the issue is regarding your comment about Harry making the change on the mechanic of not bouncing the ball on the endline in the backcourt about 4 years ago: how did he communicate this change with officials in the rest of the state? I have been to a clinic every year for the past 3 years, even though the requirement is once every 3 years. And the only time I heard that specific mechanic mentioned was during a joint association meeting (not a clinic) when John Dacey came down and spoke. He mentioned this mechanic, and I remember looking around at other people I was sitting with, and they all had the same look of "that's not right; that's not how the book tells us to do it". The rest of us hadn't gotten word of the change. You also mentioned the time when the Fed. couldn't decide whether to do the long switch or not, and you were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch. Well I can tell you for sure the rest of us were being told in the pre-season meetings, administered by the IHSA, to do the long switch or not based on the Fed. mechanic, not what you were doing.

I'm not necessarily saying the changes are good or bad, I'm just pointing out that someone decided they can do something better than the Fed., and that's how they're going to teach it. But the process is not clear on how this change gets to the officials in the rest of the state. If it's good enough for them, isn't it good enough for the rest of us? If Harry has that much influnce with Kurt, then shouldn't there be some sort of easy way to access or receive these changes? Maybe sending out a sheet or pamphlet with the rule books, so everyone knows how we're going to do it in Illinois. Otherwise, we end up doing things a little different than you, so when you and I finally get together to do a game, we have to have a slightly longer pre-game to iron out these differences. Would it be right for someone from, say, southern IL, to decide they don't like a particular mechanic or philosophy and start teaching their officials a different way than the IHSA or Fed.? In fact, IAABO is a big association in St. Louis, so I'm sure some of their philosophies carry over to officials in the S.W. part of the state. Then when East St. Louis Lincoln meets Simeon in the AA finals, there's going to be some confusion.

Again, no easy answers, just mostly observations and wishes.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Jeff - I'm not really quibbling with the fact that the Fed. allows states to make changes. I was just hoping for that little Utopian world where all basketball officials get to have the same mechanics while calling the same rules, no matter where they are.

I guess where I have the issue is regarding your comment about Harry making the change on the mechanic of not bouncing the ball on the endline in the backcourt about 4 years ago: how did he communicate this change with officials in the rest of the state? I have been to a clinic every year for the past 3 years, even though the requirement is once every 3 years. And the only time I heard that specific mechanic mentioned was during a joint association meeting (not a clinic) when John Dacey came down and spoke. He mentioned this mechanic, and I remember looking around at other people I was sitting with, and they all had the same look of "that's not right; that's not how the book tells us to do it". The rest of us hadn't gotten word of the change. You also mentioned the time when the Fed. couldn't decide whether to do the long switch or not, and you were doing a completely different mechanic for that 2 or 3 year stretch. Well I can tell you for sure the rest of us were being told in the pre-season meetings, administered by the IHSA, to do the long switch or not based on the Fed. mechanic, not what you were doing.

I know John too. I have worked for him when he assigned a league up here for a few years. John is a good guy and often talks about mechanics in his rules meetings.

All I an say is someone was not getting the word out in your area. There really is no other explaination. Clinicians are given things to talk about at clinics and meetings and it is their responsiblity to talk about changes or special mechanics.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm not necessarily saying the changes are good or bad, I'm just pointing out that someone decided they can do something better than the Fed., and that's how they're going to teach it. But the process is not clear on how this change gets to the officials in the rest of the state. If it's good enough for them, isn't it good enough for the rest of us? If Harry has that much influnce with Kurt, then shouldn't there be some sort of easy way to access or receive these changes? Maybe sending out a sheet or pamphlet with the rule books, so everyone knows how we're going to do it in Illinois. Otherwise, we end up doing things a little different than you, so when you and I finally get together to do a game, we have to have a slightly longer pre-game to iron out these differences. Would it be right for someone from, say, southern IL, to decide they don't like a particular mechanic or philosophy and start teaching their officials a different way than the IHSA or Fed.? In fact, IAABO is a big association in St. Louis, so I'm sure some of their philosophies carry over to officials in the S.W. part of the state. Then when East St. Louis Lincoln meets Simeon in the AA finals, there's going to be some confusion.

Again, no easy answers, just mostly observations and wishes.

1. Clinicians
   
2. PowerPoint Presentations
   
3. Clinics
   
4. Association Meetings
   
5. IHSA Convention and Clincs at concention (run by the head clinicians in each sport)
   
6. Rules Meetings

I think Clinicians are the main piece in this equation because members should see these people all the time and hear of mechanics and changes from these people left and right. I belong to more than one association and we have 3 or more clinicians/assignors in our groups and they beat in our heads the mechanics. Even when someone is doing a presentation, clinicians will point out the change or difference when necessary. It sounds to me we have been getting the word out and the people around you have not. This really seems true if John is telling you something you have never heard before or do not know where it came from.

Also this is not about an area over another. There are similar situations up here and officials that do not attend meetings or attend clinics never hear of the changes until the season starts. This is always why officials have to take some responsibility for keeping up with mechanics and rules interpretations. I have seen things posted directly on our personal web pages and officials were clueless. There is only so much the IHSA does. I know I attend IHSA clinics every single year and many times the mechanics are talked about right there.

Peace